Will Protests Lead to More COVID Surges?

Nurses COVID

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Disclaimer: I know that I can't control what people post on this forum, but I'm asking that we keep the discussion as apolitical and health-centered as possible. I know there are a lot of strong opinions about police brutality, protests, and riots/vandalism/looting. If you're interested to hear people's thoughts on those topics, there's an interesting, non-healthcare discussion in the US Politics Club on AN:

https://allnurses.com/riots-minneapolis-t720621/

Is anybody else seriously concerned that we might see a large surge in covid cases following all of these protests?

Last week, people were yelling on the TV about how irresponsible it was to begin Phases I/II and let people gather in groups of 10. Now, literally tens of thousands of people are gathering, and the media/public seem shockingly unconcerned. I feel like I'm getting social distancing policy whiplash.

Most of the protest pictures I've seen depict protesters wearing masks and attempting to follow covid guidelines. However, there are a ton of pics of people wearing masks incorrectly (under their noses or chins), and it's pretty much impossible to socially distance in protest/riot conditions. It seems like a nearly impossible environment to practice good hand hygiene. Plus, people are out yelling/chanting and projecting their droplets even further. I'm just so glad that they're outside instead of in a confined space.

I fully support peoples' right to demonstrate, and I generally support the protesters' rhetoric, but this seems like a recipe for disaster. With covid concerns still lingering, it seems like the worst possible time for people to be out congregating.

I'm especially worried about covid having a vastly disproportionate on black communities by the time this is all over. By now, we've probably all seen the data showing that African Americans are dying from covid at disproportionately higher rates than other races. Even if high-risk people are staying home from protests, I fear that protests could increase the spread through communities by contact with protesters. Of course, once it's out circulating in the community, the virus will be harmful to people of all races. To be perfectly honest, I also worry about huge outbreaks through the police force, too.

Even before all of this began, many states were starting Phase I/II despite an increasing numbers of cases. My state had the biggest spike we'd ever seen the day before Phase II started, and we went ahead with Phase II anyway (just before Memorial Day, when a ton of people were out socializing and ignoring distancing orders). It seems like the protests will fuel the spread of covid even further.

Outside of the big metro areas, most cities had relatively tiny covid surges since the stay at home orders were so effective. It seems like the smaller impact has lulled citizens of those cities/states into a false sense of security. I'm concerned that places like Minneapolis, which experienced a smaller impact the first go around, are going to see huge, unprecedented surges and start running out of beds/vents.

Specializes in ED, psych.

If one more person states, “it’s violence against all races!” or “brutality against all colors!” ... you just (yet again) outlined the problem. It’s not about COVID anymore, it’s not about partisan issues ... it’s about not seeing the literal black and white issue.

If you can’t understand why people are risking exposure to COVID by protesting ... well, I’m not even sure what to say anymore. We all watched a man die. 3 other policemen stood by. Our president made a comment on it ... and his Twitter account can explain the rest. Today was George Floyd’s funeral - and not one word as of 1900.

I’m going to go ahead and post some quotes from articles yet again, because a lot of people are too lazy to click on links (but will go on to complain of “communism!” Or “liberal cities are the cause”)

“Two national data reporting systems collect information on legal intervention deaths in the U.S. The Federal Bureau of Investigation’s (FBI’s) Uniform Crime Reporting Program collects data directly from more than 18,000 LE agencies nationwide. The National Vital Statistics System (NVSS), operated by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC’s) National Center for Health Statistics, collects death certificate data for all U.S. states and territories. Prior studies suggest that both systems may under-count these fatalities for different reasons.7 NVSS tends to misclassify cases as homicides when information about police involvement is not mentioned by death certifiers, whereas the Uniform Crime Reporting Program most often misses cases due to data omission or failure to report by some jurisdictions, as participation is voluntary.7 A third federal data source, CDC’s National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS), is a state-based active surveillance system of all violent deaths in participating states,b including legal intervention deaths.24 Although NVDRS does not currently collect data in all states and, thus, cannot provide national estimates, the system triangulates data from multiple sources—death certificates, coroner/medical examiner reports, and LE reports—to provide the most complete and detailed data available for included states.25 A recent analysis25 found that NVDRS captures more than twice the number of legal intervention death cases relative to the FBI’s Supplemental Homicide Report and 71% more than NVSS.

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.

... Officers were predominantly male (97.4%) with a mean age of 35.6 years. About 12% of LE officers in the U.S. are women; thus, male officers were over-represented.37 The mean number of officers involved (I.e., suspected of inflicting the fatal injuries) per incident was 1.3. In most cases, at least one involved officer was white (84.3%), with fewer cases involving a black officer (13.6%) or an officer of another race/ethnicity.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

“A 2017 study of data collected from the Dallas Police Department in Texas indicated that although race was not a significant factor in decisions to pull the trigger, Dallas officers were more likely to draw their firearms on minority suspects.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-data-say-about-police-shootings/

I can keep going, but I get the feeling that no matter how many links I post, those of us who cannot actually understand why people are risking their lives right now to protest will never get it, because “all lives matter.”

And those of us who in the past used the “argument” that those who are immunocompromised (for example) should hide away so “the rest of society can move on?” Anything you say in this thread is laughable.

Specializes in Travel, Home Health, Med-Surg.

"Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites".

What you fail to factor into your numbers is the why. I could also post links and we could go on forever. But common sense, critical thinking and the need/want to help should lead us to ask why. Are the cops racist or are some blacks in certain areas more prone to violence. Studies have shown that the latter is true when you break things down. So again, we should ask why (assuming we care). The why in this case is because of the neighborhoods that have been neglected for years. Again ask why, the answer is because of liberal Democratic social policies. If we really care about poor black people in these neighborhoods we should look at how to effectively help their circumstances and thus them as human beings. This would help this issue by decreasing crime and thus police interactions. It is way too easy and simplistic to simply label cops as racist and move on. That said of course there are some and those should be weeded out.

And no, I dont understand how it is OK to risk the lives of others for a protest, no matter how well deserved that protest may be.

Telling other posters they are lazy and laughable isn't helpful either, IMO

You dont have to agree but we are all entitled to our opinions.

Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.

Conversely, I think that it's easier to point fingers elsewhere rather than confront the history of racism in our policing system.

9 hours ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:

So the metric for ignoring the public health "expert" guidelines is what you subjectively to be morally repugnant versus what someone else subjectively feels. You get to be the moral arbiter of the cause that may or may not cause a second Coronavirus wave. Got it.

Spare me the bogus drama. States were reopening and many of the guidelines were changed by the time the protests began. Stop playing politics when people are dying. Who raised you? You have no civility, only political nonsense. I'm muting you because my mind won't allow me to keep playing petty circlejerk games when my people are dying in these streets. *blocked*

Specializes in Psych.
20 minutes ago, NurseBlaq said:

States were reopening and many of the guidelines were changed by the time the protests began

The public health experts got rid of the social distancing by six feet rule? When?! And which guidelines changed?

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Stop playing politics when people are dying.

The protests are political in nature. Their objectives, whether it be reforming police practices to defunding police to abolishing police departments entirely, are based on politicians implementing their desired agendas.

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Who raised you? You have no civility, only political nonsense.

Ad hominem personal attack.

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when my people are dying in these streets

Wouldn't a hypothetical Coronavirus second wave cause exponentially more of "your people" to die in COVID ICUs?

Specializes in ED, psych.

This struck out at me - “are the cops racist or are some blacks in certain areas more prone to violence. Studies have shown that the latter is true when you break it down.”

Should I say that all school shooters are white males then?
The data itself is interpretation, which the article that I quoted from (from 3 separate data sources), stated - by using race as the only level as criminality and not the police officer who pulled the trigger, for example.

You can re-read my link, if you read it at all. It’s a pretty solid descriptive analysis, but by no means final (as the last - NVDRS - only is used by 17 states).

You will interpret what you want to interpret. Why don’t you re-read your sentence again and tell me how it sounds?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228594648_Black_Neighbors_Higher_Crime_The_Role_of_Racial_Stereotypes_in_Evaluations_of_Neighborhood_Crime

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/periodicals/em/summer16/highlight2.html

“Racially and ethnically segregated neighborhoods also tend to have higher rates of violent crime. Peterson and Krivo”s analysis of nationwide neighborhood crime data for the year 2000 demonstrates, however, that violent crime rates in predominantly African-American and Latino neighborhoods differ little from predominantly white neighborhoods after controlling for segregation and disadvantage. In particular, spatial disadvantage — that is, adverse characteristics such as poverty or crime among nearby neighborhoods — appears to drive disparities in local crime rates between these neighborhoods.45”

Instead of blaming those “liberal Democratic social policies” and neglected neighborhood, ask the WHY and HOW:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4597788/

https://www.Google.com/amp/s/prospect.org/api/amp/civil-rights/government-created-housing-segregation.-government-can-end-it./

There already has been some solutions to inequality and those “poor black people.” Your President, in 2018, suspended one them - Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing - an Obama era ruling.

Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion ... until it infringes upon someone’s right to live. So many posts - “we need to help those poors,” “it’s the Democrats,” etc - so generic, lacking substance and disappointing.

It’s what got us here in the first place.

3 hours ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:

Wouldn't a hypothetical Coronavirus second wave cause exponentially more of "your people" to die in COVID ICUs?

Tada. Now you’re getting it. Not an easy choice, is it?

You forgot to add ‘communist’ at the end, though.

Specializes in Psych.

What's apparently not an easy choice is for the leftist "public health experts" to stand up to African-American protesters and tell them to stay home with the same zeal they did against the Reopen America protesters. It's pure politics and Machiavellian to boot.

Specializes in Travel, Home Health, Med-Surg.
2 hours ago, pixierose said:

This struck out at me - “are the cops racist or are some blacks in certain areas more prone to violence. Studies have shown that the latter is true when you break it down.”

Should I say that all school shooters are white males then?
The data itself is interpretation, which the article that I quoted from (from 3 separate data sources), stated - by using race as the only level as criminality and not the police officer who pulled the trigger, for example.

You can re-read my link, if you read it at all. It’s a pretty solid descriptive analysis, but by no means final (as the last - NVDRS - only is used by 17 states).

You will interpret what you want to interpret. Why don’t you re-read your sentence again and tell me how it sounds?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228594648_Black_Neighbors_Higher_Crime_The_Role_of_Racial_Stereotypes_in_Evaluations_of_Neighborhood_Crime

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/periodicals/em/summer16/highlight2.html

“Racially and ethnically segregated neighborhoods also tend to have higher rates of violent crime. Peterson and Krivo”s analysis of nationwide neighborhood crime data for the year 2000 demonstrates, however, that violent crime rates in predominantly African-American and Latino neighborhoods differ little from predominantly white neighborhoods after controlling for segregation and disadvantage. In particular, spatial disadvantage — that is, adverse characteristics such as poverty or crime among nearby neighborhoods — appears to drive disparities in local crime rates between these neighborhoods.45”

Instead of blaming those “liberal Democratic social policies” and neglected neighborhood, ask the WHY and HOW:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4597788/

https://www.Google.com/amp/s/prospect.org/api/amp/civil-rights/government-created-housing-segregation.-government-can-end-it./

There already has been some solutions to inequality and those “poor black people.” Your President, in 2018, suspended one them - Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing - an Obama era ruling.

Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion ... until it infringes upon someone’s right to live. So many posts - “we need to help those poors,” “it’s the Democrats,” etc - so generic, lacking substance and disappointing.

It’s what got us here in the first place.

Statistics and numbers can be misleading that is why we need to look at the big picture. I don't see how pointing out that poor neighbors need help is lacking substance. It is a fact and how to fix some of the issues should be addressed, all of them. IMO, what is disappointing is the fact that people just say it is bc of racism and move on without considering other factors (like have the social policies helped or hurt). Don't we nurses all know that part of the process is to go back and see if our plan worked or not and then fix what didn't work.

President Trump did not suspend the AFFH. He required that cities submit paperwork to receive Federal funds and those cities either did or didn't. His plan also reduces Federal control so communites have more gov control at the local level (city/state). The Fair Housing was on the books for many years before Obama with neither party enforcing it. Obama waited until 2015 (the end of his Presidency) to put his "solution" into place. If he really cared why didn't he do this at the beginning of his presidency and have 8 years for him and Biden and their team to work on this. Even so with the changes Trump made the cities and states can still proceed with the plan without the Fed gov it they want to, and some have.

Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
2 hours ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:

What's apparently not an easy choice is for the leftist "public health experts" to stand up to African-American protesters and tell them to stay home with the same zeal they did against the Reopen America protesters. It's pure politics and Machiavellian to boot.

Why would anyone tell them to go home when the states are opening businesses?

Does this crap get better traction on FB posts for you?

Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
3 hours ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:

What's apparently not an easy choice is for the leftist "public health experts" to stand up to African-American protesters and tell them to stay home with the same zeal they did against the Reopen America protesters. It's pure politics and Machiavellian to boot.

ONLY African American protesters?

Specializes in ED, psych.
1 hour ago, Daisy4RN said:

Statistics and numbers can be misleading that is why we need to look at the big picture. I don't see how pointing out that poor neighbors need help is lacking substance. It is a fact and how to fix some of the issues should be addressed, all of them. IMO, what is disappointing is the fact that people just say it is bc of racism and move on without considering other factors (like have the social policies helped or hurt). Don't we nurses all know that part of the process is to go back and see if our plan worked or not and then fix what didn't work.

President Trump did not suspend the AFFH. He required that cities submit paperwork to receive Federal funds and those cities either did or didn't. His plan also reduces Federal control so communites have more gov control at the local level (city/state). The Fair Housing was on the books for many years before Obama with neither party enforcing it. Obama waited until 2015 (the end of his Presidency) to put his "solution" into place. If he really cared why didn't he do this at the beginning of his presidency and have 8 years for him and Biden and their team to work on this. Even so with the changes Trump made the cities and states can still proceed with the plan without the Fed gov it they want to, and some have.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/housing/trump-administrations-proposed-rule-would-perpetuate-racist-and-discriminatory

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/economic-justice/fair-housing-policy-under-the-trump-administration/

My bad, he didn’t suspend ... he completely revamped ... to the detriment of POC. Did you ever question why some cities didn’t submit the paperwork?

No, pointing out that “poor neighbors need help” lacks substance because it’s a rinse-repeat reaction. Observe: Michael Brown, Tamir Rice ... “oh, we need to do something, (insert about neighborhoods/youth violence/more religion/etc) add thoughts and prayers” ... and? To me, I’m reading from your post “the poor blacks need our help!”

That’s not the issue. It’s actually part of the problem.

Specializes in ED, psych.
3 hours ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:

What's apparently not an easy choice is for the leftist "public health experts" to stand up to African-American protesters and tell them to stay home with the same zeal they did against the Reopen America protesters. It's pure politics and Machiavellian to boot.

Yeah, I’ll stand up to those darn pesky African American protestors and leave those patriotic white protestors be.

Do you hear how you sound?

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