Disclaimer: I know that I can't control what people post on this forum, but I'm asking that we keep the discussion as apolitical and health-centered as possible. I know there are a lot of strong opinions about police brutality, protests, and riots/vandalism/looting. If you're interested to hear people's thoughts on those topics, there's an interesting, non-healthcare discussion in the US Politics Club on AN:
Is anybody else seriously concerned that we might see a large surge in covid cases following all of these protests?
Last week, people were yelling on the TV about how irresponsible it was to begin Phases I/II and let people gather in groups of 10. Now, literally tens of thousands of people are gathering, and the media/public seem shockingly unconcerned. I feel like I'm getting social distancing policy whiplash.
Most of the protest pictures I've seen depict protesters wearing masks and attempting to follow covid guidelines. However, there are a ton of pics of people wearing masks incorrectly (under their noses or chins), and it's pretty much impossible to socially distance in protest/riot conditions. It seems like a nearly impossible environment to practice good hand hygiene. Plus, people are out yelling/chanting and projecting their droplets even further. I'm just so glad that they're outside instead of in a confined space.
I fully support peoples' right to demonstrate, and I generally support the protesters' rhetoric, but this seems like a recipe for disaster. With covid concerns still lingering, it seems like the worst possible time for people to be out congregating.
I'm especially worried about covid having a vastly disproportionate on black communities by the time this is all over. By now, we've probably all seen the data showing that African Americans are dying from covid at disproportionately higher rates than other races. Even if high-risk people are staying home from protests, I fear that protests could increase the spread through communities by contact with protesters. Of course, once it's out circulating in the community, the virus will be harmful to people of all races. To be perfectly honest, I also worry about huge outbreaks through the police force, too.
Even before all of this began, many states were starting Phase I/II despite an increasing numbers of cases. My state had the biggest spike we'd ever seen the day before Phase II started, and we went ahead with Phase II anyway (just before Memorial Day, when a ton of people were out socializing and ignoring distancing orders). It seems like the protests will fuel the spread of covid even further.
Outside of the big metro areas, most cities had relatively tiny covid surges since the stay at home orders were so effective. It seems like the smaller impact has lulled citizens of those cities/states into a false sense of security. I'm concerned that places like Minneapolis, which experienced a smaller impact the first go around, are going to see huge, unprecedented surges and start running out of beds/vents.
But politicians have shown that they don’t do anything, time and time again - and it’s across parties. Republicans, Democrats.
What makes you think this time will be different? And a year from now, there won’t be be another George Floyd? There will be - unless there is change. And the people have spoken.
Getting back to COVID - in a *normal* society, we’d be heartbroken and angry that black people are being revictimized, pushed into the streets, to demand equal rights, during a pandemic.. We’d be desperately figuring out a way to figure out social justice in the comfort of all of our homes, wouldn’t we?
But we don’t live in a normal society. Can you even envision that happening? Because, thoughts and prayers, right? Hell, how often has Trump said anything this week alone? He twittered a baseless antifa claim about a 75-year-old man during George Floyd’s funeral, for example.
Those agitating for racial equality are not hostile to the notion of public health, unlike the All Haircuts Matter protesters. Those protesters, whom we last saw raging against quarantine orders, were explicitly committed to going mask free (look at Trump, mask free, because it makes him look weak).
I work in a COVID unit, and I have seen first hand what this virus can do. I will always wear a mask when out in public, and even though my state opened to level 2 I’ve only gotten my hair cut. We should be angry that people have been forced out to protest, not that they are out protesting.
I agree that both parties are guilty to some degree but in the majority of big cities that have significant problems there is no doubt these are run by and have been run by the Democrats for a long time (Chicago ~50yrs!). I hope things will change but IMO they won't unless Politicians are made to change, yes the people have spoken and keep electing Dems to run these cities and look how that has turned out. And the mayor of Chicago was one of those who needed to run out in the middle of the shutdown for a haircut. Trump went to Chicago (few years ago) to have meeting with the Mayor, police chief etc to try to help with the situation there (the violence in the city that kills many black lives on a routine basis) and they basically told him to get out. This is what people should be angry about. It is absolutely ridiculous that some of our political leaders cannot put their differences aside and work together (there have always been differences but this never-trump attitude is just toxic and hurting the Country). Not only do they push out the President (because they don't like him/for political reasons) the local Dem run gov then proceeds to do nothing. And again why don't these black lives (in Chicago etc) matter to BLM, Sharpton etc. Where are they? If they care why aren't they demanding change for these people even if that means working with Trump. Just sad!
Look at peoples/politicians actions for long term solutions, not just their words. Take a deeper look and see who you think is really helping in racial issues and the neglected neighborhoods. Taking a knee, wearing a African scarf, showing up and speaking a few words at protests/funerals may provide a momentary show of support but what about long term solutions.
I am heartbroken also about this entire situation but nobody is "pushing" or "forcing" people to protest at all much less in the middle of the pandemic. That is their choice and they are making that decision knowing that it could hurt someone else. And I think the ongoing narrative that the first protesters only wanted a haircut in disingenuous, y'all know that is just not true.
1 hour ago, herring_RN said:
I am almost 76 years old. I have many family responsibilities. I only go to the grocery, pharmacy, and drive family member to the doctor. I just drove my a small protest a few blocks from home. It was young people I know. I honked. I think by wearing a mask, only going where everyone wears one and stays six feet from each other and washing hands often I am less likely to be infected. Do fellow allnurses.com members thin my odds of getting COVID-19 are greater from a protester wearing a mask six feet away than from someone who went to the beach and was close to others or had a haircut, ate at a restaurant or was in a croed somewhere?
I am glad that you are able to stay safe but not everyone has those same options as you. People were getting arrested at the beach etc for not social distancing (one guy who was sitting by himself with literally nobody else on the beach). I also saw 2 black women who got arrested in NYC for protesting in front of Planned Parenthood for not social distancing while at the same thousands were also protesting for George Floyd with no arrests for not social distancing/wearing masks. Why OK for those protesting Mr Floyd but not OK for those protesting PP.
I think most people care about these issues but we just see different ways to accomplish them and I think our politicians and media are not helping at all.
Do fellow allnurses.com members thin my odds of getting COVID-19 are greater from a protester wearing a mask six feet away than from someone who went to the beach and was close to others or had a haircut, ate at a restaurant or was in a croed somewhere?
Here's an image of the George Floyd march (60k) people here in downtown Houston. Do those people look like they're six feet away from each other? And where are those self-righteous public health Corona-obsessed busybodies trying to get them to "stay home" now?
Like I said before, I have no problem with people protesting whatever they want. Free country. But I do have an issue with the public health Corona-obsessed people hypocritically harassing and bullying the Reopen America crowd but leaving this crowd unmolested. They don't want to alienate fellow Democrat voters, so I understand why they conveniently stayed quiet for this crowd.
Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
6 hours ago, Daisy4RN said:
If it is the individual protesters right than it is anybody else's right for whatever reason they see fit also. Again, you can't have it both ways (no matter how good anyone's reason is). And it is not just their risk to self, they are risking everyone they come in contact with.
I am not at all certain about this. I don't want the fact of the pandemic to cause us to lose focus on the very real problem of some police officers using their power to kill or hurt others.
But I also would be wrong to take a chance of bringing COVID-19 to my family members who are older than me or getting sick and becoming a burden to our kids.
Here is why there IS a difference between wanting to go to a concert, bar, or barber shop and wanting to petition the government for a redress of grievances such the grievous wrong of police brutality.
Quote
Constitution of the United States
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Press
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
I agree that both parties are guilty to some degree but in the majority of big cities that have significant problems there is no doubt these are run by and have been run by the Democrats for a long time (Chicago ~50yrs!). I hope things will change but IMO they won't unless Politicians are made to change, yes the people have spoken and keep electing Dems to run these cities and look how that has turned out. And the mayor of Chicago was one of those who needed to run out in the middle of the shutdown for a haircut. Trump went to Chicago (few years ago) to have meeting with the Mayor, police chief etc to try to help with the situation there (the violence in the city that kills many black lives on a routine basis) and they basically told him to get out. This is what people should be angry about. It is absolutely ridiculous that some of our political leaders cannot put their differences aside and work together (there have always been differences but this never-trump attitude is just toxic and hurting the Country). Not only do they push out the President (because they don't like him/for political reasons) the local Dem run gov then proceeds to do nothing. And again why don't these black lives (in Chicago etc) matter to BLM, Sharpton etc. Where are they? If they care why aren't they demanding change for these people even if that means working with Trump. Just sad!
Look at peoples/politicians actions for long term solutions, not just their words. Take a deeper look and see who you think is really helping in racial issues and the neglected neighborhoods. Taking a knee, wearing a African scarf, showing up and speaking a few words at protests/funerals may provide a momentary show of support but what about long term solutions.
I am heartbroken also about this entire situation but nobody is "pushing" or "forcing" people to protest at all much less in the middle of the pandemic. That is their choice and they are making that decision knowing that it could hurt someone else. And I think the ongoing narrative that the first protesters only wanted a haircut in disingenuous, y'all know that is just not true.
Sigh.
Back to Trump and political back and forth. This is why you won’t get it, and probably never will, although I have hope. If we are talking between the two parties, ask yourself - “What has Trump done over these past two weeks?”
He’s stoked the fires, yes. And he’s done .... WHAT?
Racial inequality has a direct impact on health care outcomes. This is why many of us “crazy liberals” (I’m actually an independent) support the protests - ask yourself, *why* are POC most affected by COVID?
Systemic racism - the moment was seized ... during a pandemic. It sucks. This was the moment that people FINALLY said enough - and it’s taking protests during a pandemic for politicians to take notice - sad, isn’t it?
Apparently people dying is unimportant to certain people.
You should tell that to Fauci and the public health "experts". Apparently they are so worried about Coronavirus that they'll tell us to stay home, but won't try to stop or dissuade African-Americans from rallying in public over the same concerns. Maybe the Corona-obsessed really don't think black lives matter so they'll cynically let Corona spread in these protests!
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
3 hours ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:
You should tell that to Fauci and the public health "experts". Apparently they are so worried about Coronavirus that they'll tell us to stay home, but won't try to stop or dissuade African-Americans from rallying in public over the same concerns. Maybe the Corona-obsessed really don't think black lives matter so they'll cynically let Corona spread in these protests!
Baloney
The public health messaging has been pretty consistent...it's the political messaging that is confused and contradictory. You argued against staying home and are now distressed that people aren't staying home.
Is it because you don't like what they are doing, or who they are?
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
3 hours ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:
I didn't forget David Dorn or other victims of violent looting.
Of course not. Apologists for racism never forget the tools and talking points of their trade...they forget history. If only there was ANY credibility associated with the words.
I am not at all certain about this. I don't want the fact of the pandemic to cause us to lose focus on the very real problem of some police officers using their power to kill or hurt others.
But I also would be wrong to take a chance of bringing COVID-19 to my family members who are older than me or getting sick and becoming a burden to our kids.
Here is why there IS a difference between wanting to go to a concert, bar, or barber shop and wanting to petition the government for a redress of grievances such the grievous wrong of police brutality.
I don't want the police issue to get lost either. Those officers should pay the price and I think Chavin should be charged with first degree murder. I just don't think it is "systemic" vs individual/dept racism and I think it is unfair to label all police as racist. Either way they should be weeded out. I agree with you that young people aren't always careful/in denial but IMO that is exactly the problem bc they will be the ones (not being careful) and spreading Covid. Most of the first protestors were not simply wanting to go to a bar, haircut etc, much bigger picture.
5 hours ago, pixierose said:
12 hours ago, herring_RN said:
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Press
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
You of course note this includes freedom of religion. Churches have been closed for a long time and some people trying to have Church in their cars completely social distancing were harassed by cops, made to disperse and fined (one I remember was in Mississippi)
5 hours ago, pixierose said:
Sigh.
Back to Trump and political back and forth. This is why you won’t get it, and probably never will, although I have hope. If we are talking between the two parties, ask yourself - “What has Trump done over these past two weeks?”
He’s stoked the fires, yes. And he’s done .... WHAT?
Racial inequality has a direct impact on health care outcomes. This is why many of us “crazy liberals” (I’m actually an independent) support the protests - ask yourself, *why* are POC most affected by COVID?
Systemic racism - the moment was seized ... during a pandemic. It sucks. This was the moment that people FINALLY said enough - and it’s taking protests during a pandemic for politicians to take notice - sad, isn’t it?
Sigh, I am not sure you get it. I think the politics have more to do with this than you realize. While I do agree with you that Trump says/tweets stupid things sometimes look past that and look at his actions, what he has done for the black community. I am a Independent also, not a crazy Republican. I try to look at the bigger picture to see what has caused these issues and how to solve them. I agree it is sad that Politicians dont care, I just think it is across the board and as I stated IMO it is more the Dems than the Reps in this situation re: the African American community. I don't just say this without hearing and reading other opinions on the matter. People want to dislike this President so much they apparently are OK with Bidens racist history.
This is the problem. They don't want to get it. Apparently people dying is unimportant to certain people. Civility be damned!
People do get. Just bc some see a different way to solve the problem (and the cause) doesn't mean they don't get it. Many more innocent people have died at the "peaceful" protests, apparently that is unimportant to some.
1 hour ago, toomuchbaloney said:
The public health messaging has been pretty consistent
you have got to be kidding
1 hour ago, toomuchbaloney said:
Of course not. Apologists for racism never forget the tools and talking points of their trade...they forget history. If only there was ANY credibility associated with the words.
I think some of you are forgetting the history of racism in this country, or maybe never knew it to begin with. I don't think that pointing out the innocent people have died (including some cops who were shot in the head assassination style) during the protest makes them an "apologist" for racism.
(I tried to fix the formatting but cant seem to figure it out, just for clarification the links are mine.)
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
51 minutes ago, Daisy4RN said:
I don't want the police issue to get lost either. Those officers should pay the price and I think Chavin should be charged with first degree murder. I just don't think it is "systemic" vs individual/dept racism and I think it is unfair to label all police as racist. Either way they should be weeded out. I agree with you that young people aren't always careful/in denial but IMO that is exactly the problem bc they will be the ones (not being careful) and spreading Covid. Most of the first protestors were not simply wanting to go to a bar, haircut etc, much bigger picture.
You of course note this includes freedom of religion. Churches have been closed for a long time and some people trying to have Church in their cars completely social distancing were harassed by cops, made to disperse and fined (one I remember was in Mississippi)
Sigh, I am not sure you get it. I think the politics have more to do with this than you realize. While I do agree with you that Trump says/tweets stupid things sometimes look past that and look at his actions, what he has done for the black community. I am a Independent also, not a crazy Republican. I try to look at the bigger picture to see what has caused these issues and how to solve them. I agree it is sad that Politicians dont care, I just think it is across the board and as I stated IMO it is more the Dems than the Reps in this situation re: the African American community. I don't just say this without hearing and reading other opinions on the matter. People want to dislike this President so much they apparently are OK with Bidens racist history.
People do get. Just bc some see a different way to solve the problem (and the cause) doesn't mean they don't get it. Many more innocent people have died at the "peaceful" protests, apparently that is unimportant to some.
you have got to be kidding
I think some of you are forgetting the history of racism in this country, or maybe never knew it to begin with. I don't think that pointing out the innocent people have died (including some cops who were shot in the head assassination style) during the protest makes them an "apologist" for racism.
(I tried to fix the formatting but cant seem to figure it out, just for clarification the links are mine.)
No, I wasn't kidding. The CDC and public health departments have been pretty consistent as they have developed the guidelines and tried to work through the political limits placed on their communications. The policymaker's political messaging has been inconsistent from the highest political office to the mayors of cities. THEY'RE messaging has wavered based upon political pressure. Health recommendations have evolved with science and advances in the understanding of the virus, as usual.
.thumb.jpg.de0b1803a7b639db80953e3a326388a1.jpg){kind=small}
Daisy4RN
2,238 Posts
I agree that both parties are guilty to some degree but in the majority of big cities that have significant problems there is no doubt these are run by and have been run by the Democrats for a long time (Chicago ~50yrs!). I hope things will change but IMO they won't unless Politicians are made to change, yes the people have spoken and keep electing Dems to run these cities and look how that has turned out. And the mayor of Chicago was one of those who needed to run out in the middle of the shutdown for a haircut. Trump went to Chicago (few years ago) to have meeting with the Mayor, police chief etc to try to help with the situation there (the violence in the city that kills many black lives on a routine basis) and they basically told him to get out. This is what people should be angry about. It is absolutely ridiculous that some of our political leaders cannot put their differences aside and work together (there have always been differences but this never-trump attitude is just toxic and hurting the Country). Not only do they push out the President (because they don't like him/for political reasons) the local Dem run gov then proceeds to do nothing. And again why don't these black lives (in Chicago etc) matter to BLM, Sharpton etc. Where are they? If they care why aren't they demanding change for these people even if that means working with Trump. Just sad!
https://nypost.com/2019/11/09/chicagos-crime-proves-black-lives-dont-matter-to-democrats/
https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/10/04/left-ignore-black-black-crime/
Look at peoples/politicians actions for long term solutions, not just their words. Take a deeper look and see who you think is really helping in racial issues and the neglected neighborhoods. Taking a knee, wearing a African scarf, showing up and speaking a few words at protests/funerals may provide a momentary show of support but what about long term solutions.
I am heartbroken also about this entire situation but nobody is "pushing" or "forcing" people to protest at all much less in the middle of the pandemic. That is their choice and they are making that decision knowing that it could hurt someone else. And I think the ongoing narrative that the first protesters only wanted a haircut in disingenuous, y'all know that is just not true.
I am glad that you are able to stay safe but not everyone has those same options as you. People were getting arrested at the beach etc for not social distancing (one guy who was sitting by himself with literally nobody else on the beach). I also saw 2 black women who got arrested in NYC for protesting in front of Planned Parenthood for not social distancing while at the same thousands were also protesting for George Floyd with no arrests for not social distancing/wearing masks. Why OK for those protesting Mr Floyd but not OK for those protesting PP.
I think most people care about these issues but we just see different ways to accomplish them and I think our politicians and media are not helping at all.
https://medium.com/@zaiderrr/why-toxic-tribalism-is-destroying-our-society-what-to-do-about-it-e05c3391d143