Why do RN's with ASN and BSN make the same?

zenman · Mar 1, 2005

Zen, how do you do that??? (pick who is whom)??? And, what is your assessment of each? I am curious. Why??? cause.....
I don't buy it. Not for a NY minute.

And a NY minute is worth how much these days?

Everyone here KNOWS You are a BSN proponent. That is ok; I can respect that.

I'm more of a nursing proponent so respect me for the level of reality I'm blessed with...if you like!

...how do you ever account for ADN's who hold prior baccalaureate degrees or higher? How do you pick THEM out??? Just wondering.... :)

That's an easy one! With all those liberal art courses, they are the most rounded nurse on the floor, except for the BSN grad with prior baccalaureate or masters degrees. You see, every course you take...every book you read...and this is so fascinating to me...your knowledge level increases!

You see, it's a myth, propogated mostly by BSN proponents, ---- that you can "pick them out" like that.

Education in other fields and arts has increased my level of observation. I'm nothing special...just had more education in an area that nurses typically do not get. For, example the unit clerk who almost crapped when I told her that she had vision problems (she wasn't wearing glasses at the time), that her favorite color was green, that she had joint pain and that she did not like windy days...and more...just by watching her for a few minutes. Just a learned skill in another field...so yes, I can pick them out!

...professionals exist who had all 3 types of entry into RN practice.

There are people who act professional and then there are people who by vertue of educational standards, fit into the commonly accepted category of "professionals." Those "rules" were not set by me.

The "person" is not the "degree." Let's meditate on this...hummmmmm

zenman · Mar 1, 2005

I think one's drive to education is about so much more than the end result of possible money. I don't think it's wrong to want more money for a higher degree, but to some, education is more about the experience of having at least some knowledge of how this crazy world works and loving what you do.

Yes, yes, yes. ...and being able to apply that knowledge.

Now let's have a contest. The winner gets a 5 day trip to Disney World...in your own mind.

Pick a non-nursing related course that you have taken and tell us how this has helped make you a better nurse.

jeepgirl, LPN, NP · Mar 1, 2005

In most other careers those with Bachelors make more then those with Associates, and I don't quite understand why it is different in nursing???? Can someone please clear this up, thanks :)

Because you do the exact same job... no extra responsibility due to the BSN. If you have extra responsibility, you're usually rewarded for THAT.

Kyriaka · Mar 1, 2005

Yes, yes, yes. ...and being able to apply that knowledge.
Now let's have a contest. The winner gets a 5 day trip to Disney World...in your own mind.
Pick a non-nursing related course that you have taken and tell us how this has helped make you a better nurse.

______________

I am a firm believer in education for educations sake. I hope to stay in school for the rest of my life.

I am changing careers from accounting and am working on my BSN. Originally, I went to college to be an attorney so I have many Political Science courses.

My parents made me learn braille and I know a fair amount of sign language. I have taken a years worth of Latin and I know some Japanese. I know a little German, as well as some Penn. Dutch dialect. I hope to take some physics courses soon.

Even if I never use this knowlege at work, it doesnt really matter. I am a more well rounded person for the knowlege itself.

Education is power. Knowlege is power. You can never have enough. There is a misconception in our society that people with more education automatically look down on those with less, but I have seen the bias the other way...there are people who look down on others for wanting to learn more.

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." --Albert Einstein

jeepgirl, LPN, NP · Mar 1, 2005

The pick them out thing I can believe... at graduation. At least in my area... they are generally slower and harder to teach on the job.

Our hospital seems to prefer ADN grads over BSN grads because of our skills. In clinical, the ADN grads are doing their care and moving along.

The BSN grads are tracking down the tech to do their patient contact work for them and whining to each other that they are working too hard.

When the BSN students come to the floor we grimace.

When the ADN's come, we're happy because we know that they will actually help instead of giving us blank stares all day long.

I know lots of generic BSN nurses who are WONDERFUL. I mean, they are the best. And I want to be like them someday... but there are ADN's who are just as wonderful!

I think it is impossible to tell them apart after a few months on the job!

SmilingBluEyes · Mar 1, 2005

And a NY minute is worth how much these days?
I'm more of a nursing proponent so respect me for the level of reality I'm blessed with...if you like!
That's an easy one! With all those liberal art courses, they are the most rounded nurse on the floor, except for the BSN grad with prior baccalaureate or masters degrees. You see, every course you take...every book you read...and this is so fascinating to me...your knowledge level increases!
Education in other fields and arts has increased my level of observation. I'm nothing special...just had more education in an area that nurses typically do not get. For, example the unit clerk who almost crapped when I told her that she had vision problems (she wasn't wearing glasses at the time), that her favorite color was green, that she had joint pain and that she did not like windy days...and more...just by watching her for a few minutes. Just a learned skill in another field...so yes, I can pick them out!
There are people who act professional and then there are people who by vertue of educational standards, fit into the commonly accepted category of "professionals." Those "rules" were not set by me.
The "person" is not the "degree." Let's meditate on this...hummmmmm

I still don't believe you. I still say you can't tell on my Unit or in my hospital who has a BSN and who not. And consider this: some of us educate ourselves outside the university venue.....what of us? I am quite well-rounded in my reading, fairly fluent in 3 different languages, teaching myself a 4th. I studied art and music appreciation as well, after high school. I am a voracious reader, as well, and it's not unusual for me to check out 10 or more books each 3 weeks from my library. Still consider me not "so well rounded" because I only hold an ADN?

Nope you did not sell me....not for a .......Chicago minute (since you seem to think NY minutes are not worth much rofl). Nice try. YOu are right; a person is not a degree. So why do you claim you can tell them apart? Some of have actually taken the time to READ and learn in non-traditional ways.

You are I are paradoxically on the same side; we are nursing proponents. But there is more than one way to advocate; education is but one of them. BSN is not necessarily the path for me.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Mar 1, 2005

Pick a non-nursing related course that you have taken and tell us how this has helped make you a better nurse.

English has helped me to become a better communicator, writer, etc.

Speech, much to my dismay put me in front of people and got me out of my shell. This has helped me in meetings to have more confidence to speak and make presentations.

Sociology has given me a better view of society and it's issues my patients may be facing.

Economics helped to explain, well the economics of health care and the government.

I could go one I suppose.

BETSRN · Mar 1, 2005

Sorry you disagree.
I still think education SHOULD be compensated. Why bother otherwise? People are not paid to be "good people persons", begalli, but for a job done and the education they achieve IS most often recognized everywhere BUT nursing. This is why I think all BSN entry in the future is NOT a bad idea. It WOULD elevate us a more even playing ground with other professions, and cut down in this in-fighting among us.
HOW to make it happen, is another story.

My feeling is that if they ever want an all BSN workforce, they will have to give these students far MORE hands-on practice and clinicals BEFORE they graduate. Maybe nursing should be a 5 year program. I am an RN with a non-nursing Bachelors (was a teacher in my previous career). I feel we do these BSN studnts a disservice because they are frequently under the impression that they will never have to do much bedside, hands-on nursing. I feel that's a set up for burnout.

I chose NOT to go for my MSN and instead, studied for my RNC, my childbirth certification and became a board certified lactation consultant. Those skills come in far handier than the BSN. Even WITH a BSN, I still would have had to study and test for my certifications.

ratchit · Mar 1, 2005

add diploma grads in there also. at least we can not only argue about the merits of each of 3 entry levels, but also about who graduated from the best schools. poor mds can only argue about who went to the best schools!

you're correct on this one- i debated going in to the lpn issue but that would make this a different, broader discussion. i forgot about diploma grads- probably since there are very few active diploma programs in my area of the country. but my personal experience with diploma grads is that they are amazing nurses and great resources. most of the diploma grads i've worked with have been nurses forever, which could explain their strengths.

please show me the links to those schools. as an ex-teacher, i'd like to see them.

i compared several to be as sure as possible that i had good data. from the tone of the rest of your response, it seems clear you're not going to believe me so i would suggest you do the research yourself- the information is there if you want to verify it. pick any 10 schools from each type. my adn education stood up very nicely against duke, unc, and several other "name brand" schools. i didn't take a foreign language class or phys ed in nursing school, but why should the nurse next to me be paid more for having taken them?

you really don't get it do you? what is the driving force behind healthcare? clinical nursing?? does "management" impact not only the unit you work on, but the entire hospital? take it all the way down to your level...should you have any knowledge of what is happening in management in order to effective work in your position...or should you just be ignorant? do you "manage" your time, your patients, lpns, cnas? starting to catch on now?

just because we disagree doesn't mean i don't get it or that i am below your level. clinical nursing is the driving force behind inpatient care. healthcare doesn't function without clinical nurses. time management and management of nursing units are not the same thing. new nurses need to learn time management and delegation- but these are covered in adn programs to the same degree as in bsn programs. the only course difference i saw between the programs i compared was in types of management nurses will not be doing for some time out of school. i don't think a class explaining theory of nursing management can improve the care given by a new grad nurse.

i have no problem with requiring a bsn for a management position or with compensating someone more for increased responsibility (as another poster so nicely put it.) but there is no justification for compensating one nurse more than another when the duties assigned and care provided are the same.

are nurses revenue producing or an expense?

to put it in simple terms, you have to spend money to make money. bedside nurses account for a huge percentage of every hospital budget dollar. but you wouldn't have a hospital without us. so call us an expense necessary to make any money.

i can pick out all 3 types of grads almost 100% of the time by watching them on the floor.

my percentage isn't as high, but my observations are based on attitudes, competence, and willingness to learn. i've worked with outstanding and terrible nurses of all degrees.

in most businesses...not counting the motivated, street smart individual...who gets the most money...the one with lessor education or the one with more? one way to respect as a professional means having what is considered the norm for professional education by other professionals. the degree bickering will not stop until there is one entry level...you don't see it among mds do you? you would have to ask the expert golfer in the group about whether or not there is a female issue involved...i'm not going there!! :chuckle

i don't compare nursing to other fields because nursing is different from all other fields. we are a very interesting mix of calling, blue collar and white collar. by that, i mean we do dirty work that other professionals look down on- not that we are unprofessional. very little of what nurses do is taught in any classroom so it's unrealistic to compare us to accountants or lawyers. (who, by the way, can become lawyers in most states just by passing the bar exam, even if they never got any type of degree- are they more professional than adns?)

done properly, i am in favor of a standardized entry degree. but since that won't happen for some time and since it won't affect current nurses, that's in my "advancing the profession" category. but that isn't the subject here- the op asked about bsn vs adn salary. unless you can show that bsn grads bring something more valuable to the table than other grads, i don't think you can justify compensating them differently.

equal work = equal pay.

tvccrn, ASN, RN · Mar 1, 2005

I have been a nurse for 10 years now, in three different states and only one (1) hospital was there a difference in pay. The only reason for that was they were a Magnet hospital. The hospital I am working at now is in the process of becoming Magnet, but there has been no mention of a differing pay scale. If you have that at your facility, count yourself lucky.

CarVsTree · Mar 1, 2005

:deadhorse

jeepgirl, LPN, NP · Mar 1, 2005

add diploma grads in there also. at least we can not only argue about the merits of each of 3 entry levels, but also about who graduated from the best schools. poor mds can only argue about who went to the best schools!
you're correct on this one- i debated going in to the lpn issue but that would make this a different, broader discussion. i forgot about diploma grads- probably since there are very few active diploma programs in my area of the country. but my personal experience with diploma grads is that they are amazing nurses and great resources. most of the diploma grads i've worked with have been nurses forever, which could explain their strengths.
please show me the links to those schools. as an ex-teacher, i'd like to see them.
i compared several to be as sure as possible that i had good data. from the tone of the rest of your response, it seems clear you're not going to believe me so i would suggest you do the research yourself- the information is there if you want to verify it. pick any 10 schools from each type. my adn education stood up very nicely against duke, unc, and several other "name brand" schools. i didn't take a foreign language class or phys ed in nursing school, but why should the nurse next to me be paid more for having taken them?
you really don't get it do you? what is the driving force behind healthcare? clinical nursing?? does "management" impact not only the unit you work on, but the entire hospital? take it all the way down to your level...should you have any knowledge of what is happening in management in order to effective work in your position...or should you just be ignorant? do you "manage" your time, your patients, lpns, cnas? starting to catch on now?
just because we disagree doesn't mean i don't get it or that i am below your level. clinical nursing is the driving force behind inpatient care. healthcare doesn't function without clinical nurses. time management and management of nursing units are not the same thing. new nurses need to learn time management and delegation- but these are covered in adn programs to the same degree as in bsn programs. the only course difference i saw between the programs i compared was in types of management nurses will not be doing for some time out of school. i don't think a class explaining theory of nursing management can improve the care given by a new grad nurse.
i have no problem with requiring a bsn for a management position or with compensating someone more for increased responsibility (as another poster so nicely put it.) but there is no justification for compensating one nurse more than another when the duties assigned and care provided are the same.
are nurses revenue producing or an expense?
to put it in simple terms, you have to spend money to make money. bedside nurses account for a huge percentage of every hospital budget dollar. but you wouldn't have a hospital without us. so call us an expense necessary to make any money.
i can pick out all 3 types of grads almost 100% of the time by watching them on the floor.
my percentage isn't as high, but my observations are based on attitudes, competence, and willingness to learn. i've worked with outstanding and terrible nurses of all degrees.
in most businesses...not counting the motivated, street smart individual...who gets the most money...the one with lessor education or the one with more? one way to respect as a professional means having what is considered the norm for professional education by other professionals. the degree bickering will not stop until there is one entry level...you don't see it among mds do you? you would have to ask the expert golfer in the group about whether or not there is a female issue involved...i'm not going there!! :chuckle

i don't compare nursing to other fields because nursing is different from all other fields. we are a very interesting mix of calling, blue collar and white collar. by that, i mean we do dirty work that other professionals look down on- not that we are unprofessional. very little of what nurses do is taught in any classroom so it's unrealistic to compare us to accountants or lawyers. (who, by the way, can become lawyers in most states just by passing the bar exam, even if they never got any type of degree- are they more professional than adns?)

done properly, i am in favor of a standardized entry degree. but since that won't happen for some time and since it won't affect current nurses, that's in my "advancing the profession" category. but that isn't the subject here- the op asked about bsn vs adn salary. unless you can show that bsn grads bring something more valuable to the table than other grads, i don't think you can justify compensating them differently.

equal work = equal pay.

zenman is always like this. he can't help talking down to others when it comes to this issue. i think he does it to get a response... or, he just gets so into the discussion he doesn't realize that he's putting people off. and, as most of us adn nurses know from our theraputic nursing courses and real life, putting someone off isn't a good way to get your point across.

anywho, there is no difference. they both do the exact same job, just as well as the other one does. period. it's all a piece of paper.

i've seen some idiot bsn nurses and some exceptionally bright adn students. it's all about the student or nurse, not the program they graduated from. they are all supposed to be accredited, and as far as i know it is by the same exact agencies for both adn and bsn.

btw, i'm an adn working on my bsn... i graduate in july.

and i still think its just a peice of paper!