Why do RN's with ASN and BSN make the same?

jeepgirl, LPN, NP · Mar 1, 2005

:deadhorse

Is that a beating a dead horse smiley?

Tweety, BSN, RN · Mar 1, 2005

My feeling is that if they ever want an all BSN workforce, they will have to give these students far MORE hands-on practice and clinicals BEFORE they graduate.

Why is there this pervasive myth that BSN graduates don't get enough clinical? The BSN students who come to our unit precept for hundreds of hours for weeks on end. They get plenty of clinical experience. Perhaps maybe the focus sometimes on community health clinics and other non-hospital clinical areas is what people are talking about. Or maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but I can't imagine that ADNs getting more clinical time than BSNs.

jeepgirl, LPN, NP · Mar 1, 2005

Why is there this pervasive myth that BSN graduates don't get enough clinical? The BSN students who come to our unit precept for hundreds of hours for weeks on end. They get plenty of clinical experience. Perhaps maybe the focus sometimes on community health clinics and other non-hospital clinical areas is what people are talking about. Or maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but I can't imagine that ADNs getting more clinical time than BSNs.

In my part of the country, the two ADN schools had students at clinical three days a week... one for prep and two for class. The bsn students came one day of prep and one day of clinical. The prep was optional.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Mar 1, 2005

In my part of the country, the two ADN schools had students at clinical three days a week... one for prep and two for class. The bsn students came one day of prep and one day of clinical. The prep was optional.

What's "prep" mean?

My ADN school had 2 days of clinical a week. 40 hours of precepting. Here in Florida they put in much more precepting hours than we did back in a day.

begalli · Mar 2, 2005

Why is there this pervasive myth that BSN graduates don't get enough clinical? Or maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but I can't imagine that ADNs getting more clinical time than BSNs.

I think it has to do with individual schools. There is a set amount of clinical hours that are required in every nursing school program. I'm not sure if the number of hours are set by the state's BON or if they are set by the NCSBN or the NLN, or whoever.

Each school must provide the minimum number of clinical hours. Some schools include more.

Okay, I did some work. Here's a comparison between the ASN and BSN programs in my immediate area. The two programs are VERY similar:

(keep in mind that especially for the AS classes there are frequently pre req's for the pre req's that will not be listed here eg: intro chem is required before accepted into a&p)

ASN

Prereq's:

Intermediate Algebra (5 quarter units)

Micro (6)

A&P (15)

Nutrition for the Health Professions (4)

Composition and Reading or ESL: Advanced Composition and Reading (5)

General Psych (4)

Developmental Aspects of Psych (4)

Public Speaking or Fundamental of Oral Communication (4)

Cultural Anthropology or Intro to Sociology (4)

Additional coursework required for AS

One course from the Arts (4)

One course from the Humanities (4)

(One of these two courses MUST be an Intercultural Studies class)

Physical Education, Development and Performance (1)

Clinical hours in the total nursing program include 30 quarter unit's credit. Clinicals begin in the first quarter of the program. There are 6 designated classes that are strictly clinical (one each quarter).

BSN

prereq's

Human Anatomy (4 semester units)

Human Physiology (5)

Intro to CHEM - Inorganic (3)

Intro to CHEM - Organic (3)

Micro (5)

Public Speaking (3)

Composition A (3)

Composition B (3)

General Psych (3)

Nutrition for Health Professions (3)

Development for Human Potential (3)

Additional coursework required for BS

Elementary Statistics (3)

Intro Sociology or Cultural Anthropology (3)

Writing Workshop (3)

Clinical hours in the total nursing program include 19 semester units. There are no clinicals during the first three semesters of the program (the student is completing ge's during the first 2 semesters). There are 5 designated classes that are strictly clinical (one for each semester 4-8)

I will use this formula to compare semester and quarter units:

A quarter is one third of an academic year (or one quarter of the calendar year), typically lasting 10 to 12 weeks. A quarter hour is a unit of academic credit that equals 50 minutes of instruction for each week of the quarter.

A semester is one half of the academic year, typically lasting 15 to 16 weeks. A semester hour is a unit of academic credit equaling 50 minutes of instruction for each week of the semester.

So let's do some math. :stone

First convert units into one or the other - let's convert the clinical units from the ASN to semester units:

30 quarter units/1 X 2 semester units/3 quarter units

Cancel out the quarters, reduce and multiply and the result is 30 quarter units = 20 semester units.

ASN: 20 x 50 = 1000 minutes divided by 12 weeks = *83.33 average clinical minutes per week in a quarter from the beginning to the end of the program.

BSN: 19 x 50 = 950 minutes divided by 16 weeks = *59.38 average clinical minutes per week in a semester from the beginning to the end of the program.

*note: This is figured based soley on the number of units each program gives for clinicals. NOT the actual number of hours spent in clinicals.

Looking at it this way, it seems that the ASN has more clinical minutes than does the BSN. (I think I did this right. If I messed up, someone PLEASE correct me).

The only difference between these two degrees is a Statistics class, a Reading and Composition class, and a Chemistry class as far as GE's go.

There are 12 classes in the ADN program that include theory and pharm (this includes a quarter long Leadership class in the last quarter). There 16 classes in the BSN program that include therory and pharm. (I did not include the skills labs in these totals which were about proportional to each theory class for each program).

The ASN to BSN bridge program between these two schools takes 3 semesters to complete.

I dunno, not a big difference is it?

I really think that people need to stop knocking the ADN programs that are available out there and the BSN'ers need to get down from their high horse and give AS/DN'ers the credit that's due them for the equally hard work they did to earn their license.

The Associates route is an excellent and inexpensive way to become an RN and the only real difference, between these two specific programs, is a handful of GE classes and a few nursing classes (one Theory, one Community Health, one Leadership, and one Research).

:banghead:

I am NEVER doing this again!

zenman · Mar 2, 2005

______________
I am a firm believer in education for educations sake. I hope to stay in school for the rest of my life.
I am changing careers from accounting and am working on my BSN. Originally, I went to college to be an attorney so I have many Political Science courses.
My parents made me learn braille and I know a fair amount of sign language. I have taken a years worth of Latin and I know some Japanese. I know a little German, as well as some Penn. Dutch dialect. I hope to take some physics courses soon.
Even if I never use this knowlege at work, it doesnt really matter. I am a more well rounded person for the knowlege itself.
Education is power. Knowlege is power. You can never have enough. There is a misconception in our society that people with more education automatically look down on those with less, but I have seen the bias the other way...there are people who look down on others for wanting to learn more.
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." --Albert Einstein

It's a shame that anyone is looked at any differently because of educational status. Some people have trouble separating a person from the degree. I think that's one issue when people discuss the ADN vs BSN and why it turns into personal attacks. Your post is a great reason why I advocate more education.

zenman · Mar 2, 2005

I still don't believe you. I still say you can't tell on my Unit or in my hospital who has a BSN and who not.

Some people might just have more developed senses than others, do you not agree?

And consider this: some of us educate ourselves outside the university venue.....what of us? I am quite well-rounded in my reading, fairly fluent in 3 different languages, teaching myself a 4th. I studied art and music appreciation as well, after high school. I am a voracious reader, as well, and it's not unusual for me to check out 10 or more books each 3 weeks from my library. Still consider me not "so well rounded" because I only hold an ADN?
Nope you did not sell me....not for a .......Chicago minute (since you seem to think NY minutes are not worth much rofl). Nice try. YOu are right; a person is not a degree. So why do you claim you can tell them apart? Some of have actually taken the time to READ and learn in non-traditional ways.
You are I are paradoxically on the same side; we are nursing proponents. But there is more than one way to advocate; education is but one of them. BSN is not necessarily the path for me.

Education is a big one, right? Kinda sets the standards...sets you up there with other professions, right. Do you want us to at least get up to that level playing field? I think it would be nice.

begalli · Mar 2, 2005

It's a shame that anyone is looked at any differently because of educational status. Some people have trouble separating a person from the degree. I think that's one issue when people discuss the ADN vs BSN and why it turns into personal attacks. Your post is a great reason why I advocate more education.

ARE YOU KIDDING?!?! Seriously, look:

rachit says (post #43):

ADN and BSN grads take the same boards. They do the same work, they bring the same revenue in to the hospital, they provide the same patient care. I do not see anything that justifies a pay difference if they do the same thing.

zenman says to rachit regarding post #43 (post #45):

I can pick out all 3 types of grads almost 100% of the time by watching them on the floor.

begalli says to zenman regarding post #45: (post #49):

I'm just wondering what is it that stands out in each that makes you able to differentiate between the 3 during a typical day on the floor?

zenman says to begalli regarding post #49 (post #60):

Their interaction with patients, their organizational skills, the way they solve problems...

NOW you say that it's a "shame" that anyone is looked at differently? (post #78)

Do you not see what I see there? Are you actively trying to get this thread closed?

LOL!! :rotfl:

It's crazy, I tell ya! Crazy!

zenman · Mar 2, 2005

English has helped me to become a better communicator, writer, etc.
Speech, much to my dismay put me in front of people and got me out of my shell. This has helped me in meetings to have more confidence to speak and make presentations.
Sociology has given me a better view of society and it's issues my patients may be facing.
Economics helped to explain, well the economics of health care and the government.
I could go one I suppose.

Oh, I forgot to do one.

Ocean Kayaking:

Sometimes you can cruise; other times you have to paddle like hell!

Be prepared at all times for the unexpected.

Use proper body mechanics or you'll wear yourself out.

Enjoy the view...now...it may not happen again!

If you get knocked out of the boat, climb back in.

If it's outside your boat there's not much you can do about it.

Sometimes it gets really deep out there.

Be prepared to die at anytime.

I think all that can apply to nursing!

SmilingBluEyes · Mar 2, 2005

Some people might just have more developed senses than others, do you not agree?
Education is a big one, right? Kinda sets the standards...sets you up there with other professions, right. Do you want us to at least get up to that level playing field? I think it would be nice.

Randy, I still don't think you can "smell em out" the way you profess to. I will never believe it's that simple.

Speaking of senses: Mine are very well-developed and I can sense when I am being baited. :) And I took it, hook, line and sinker. (shame on me). But no more.

You are right about one thing: Education is a "biggie", and I do advocate for more of it, and I advocate for compensation commensurate with educational levels. But we people are more multifaceted and diverse than you seem to like to believe. I don't believe you would pick me out on the floor along with my diverse coworkers, and tell I have an ADN. I am very well-rounded and, by golly, I can even carry on a conversation and keep up those MSN and higher folks. :rotfl: Would you prefer French, Spanish or English when I do?

Anyhow time to move on; I am through arguing with you. Have a good night. :)

zenman · Mar 2, 2005

I compared several to be as sure as possible that I had good data. From the tone of the rest of your response, it seems clear you're not going to believe me so I would suggest you do the research yourself- the information is there if you want to verify it. Pick any 10 schools from each type. My ADN education stood up very nicely against Duke, UNC, and several other "name brand" schools. I didn't take a foreign language class or phys ed in nursing school, but why should the nurse next to me be paid more for having taken them?

I have compared them; that's why I was asking. I've taught in both ADN and BSN programs. I do, however agree that the BSN program...well hell, all nursing programs need to be more reality focused.

Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't get it or that I am below your level.

Why do some people keep bringing up "I'm below your level" stuff? Where is it coming from?

Clinical nursing is the driving force behind inpatient care. Healthcare doesn't function without clinical nurses. Time management and management of nursing units are not the same thing.

Time management is a management skill and is very useful on the unit.

I don't think a class explaining theory of nursing management can improve the care given by a new grad nurse.

I do. Just a few hours ago, an agency CNA walked off a unit because the manager told him he could not have any more of the expensive butt wipes and she had to watch her budget. He was very concerned about the patients and told us that CNAs are resorting to using wet paper towels! I've kicked this little tidbit of info upstairs. So you don't think understanding the big picture of the field you are in will not improve direct patient care?

To put it in simple terms, you have to spend money to make money. Bedside nurses account for a huge percentage of every hospital budget dollar. But you wouldn't have a hospital without us. So call us an expense necessary to make any money.

I just wanted you to know where we as nurses...sad to say...stand in managements eye. MDs on the other hand, except for those who are hospital employees, ask for and get a lot, because they are revenue producing.

My percentage isn't as high, but my observations are based on attitudes, competence, and willingness to learn. I've worked with outstanding and terrible nurses of all degrees.

That's true about all degrees. However, that is not an argument for not having one entry level.

I don't compare nursing to other fields because nursing is different from all other fields.

But there is that "professional" club out there and we should be in it. Nursing is different from other fields...we are dealing in life and death here...and patients are sicker than ever...so what should be the entry level degree?

Done properly, I am in favor of a standardized entry degree. But since that won't happen for some time and since it won't affect current nurses, that's in my "advancing the profession" category. But that isn't the subject here- the OP asked about BSN vs ADN salary. Unless you can show that BSN grads bring something more valuable to the table than other grads, I don't think you can justify compensating them differently.

By vertue of more education which = knowledge. Ever hear the story about the doctor complaining to his plummer about charging him $100 just to hit on his toilet and get it working again? Plummer said that he used to be a doctor also and it was all in knowing where to hit the toilet!

Equal work = equal pay.

This is a internal problem with "our" profession. Sadly, knowledge does not always pay...except in many other professions.

zenman · Mar 2, 2005

I compared several to be as sure as possible that I had good data. From the tone of the rest of your response, it seems clear you're not going to believe me so I would suggest you do the research yourself- the information is there if you want to verify it. Pick any 10 schools from each type. My ADN education stood up very nicely against Duke, UNC, and several other "name brand" schools. I didn't take a foreign language class or phys ed in nursing school, but why should the nurse next to me be paid more for having taken them?