Why do RN's with ASN and BSN make the same?

Nurses General Nursing

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In most other careers those with Bachelors make more then those with Associates, and I don't quite understand why it is different in nursing???? Can someone please clear this up, thanks :)

Specializes in Critical Care/ICU.

Oh, and I just found this:

`(h) In a case in which a registered nurse has accomplished the performance elements required for promotion to the next grade, the lack of a baccalaureate degree in nursing shall not be a bar to promotion to that grade, and in such a case the registered nurse shall not be denied a promotion on that basis.'

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:4:./temp/~c108uxUpSF::

dated 9/11/03

VA isssue still in Congress.

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Specializes in Critical Care/ICU.

I think that we need to quit bickering over education and start focusing on demanding nurse/patient ratios that are safe, that will truely cut down on med errors and hospital deaths.

Couldn't agree with you more!

Oooh, let's look for studies on that now.

Nite-nite! :yawn:

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Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
According to this article. "According to current demographics approximately 60% of our country's Registered Nurses come from associate degree programs (National Council of State Board of Nursing 2001)."

http://www.nursevillage.com/nv/content/careerresources/student_nursing/created_equal.jsp

Yes this is true. The numbers have been largely unchanged since the 1980s when Associate Degree RN-entry became much more common. In some states, however this number is MUCH higher, more like 70%- plus in some areas, where Associate Degree numbers are much more common and BSN programs harder to access. Approximately 35% of first-time RN's graduate BSN programs of some sort, either accelerated or traditional.

I am glad to see RN-BSN programs become more available online. This helps the non-trad student who does not have access to BSN programs nearby, yet still has to work fulltime, go back and finish his or her BSN.

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Specializes in oncology, surgical stepdown, ACLS & OCN.

Those studies were well publicized and criticized to have been funded by pro-BSN special interest groups and the all BSN staffed hospitals had lower nurse to patient ratios and more unlicensed support staff than the hospitals that were staffed by ADN and/or LPN's that it compared to among other factors that were left out when publishing their findings.

I'd be willing to bet that nurse to patient ratio has a great deal more to do with medication errors and patient outcomes altogether than ones nursing educational preparation.

I have to agree w/ you, I think nurse to patient ratio has more negative effect on pt. care than less education. the nurses w/ less pt. have more time w/ less interuption which also causes errors. I have an ASN. w/ at least 36 credits in liberal arts such as english comp 1 and 2, historyw/ western civ

psych, sociology, chemistry, A&P, microbiology, art history and so on. The only thing a BSN

gives you is a degree that opens administrative doors. MY critical thinking skills are just as good as most of the BSN's I know and work with. I have supervised and managed, precepted and oriented many nurses over the years. My point is: BSN's, ASN,'s diplomas are taught the same clinical curiculum, critical thinking developes w/ learning and applying that knowledge, at the bedside, experience means a whole lot! I would rather have an experienced nurse taking care of me than a new nurse w/ a BSN.

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Specializes in oncology, surgical stepdown, ACLS & OCN.
Thanks for all of the quick late night responses.

I really appreciated seeing the U of Penn study as this is the one that I referred to that got a lot of criticism for it's slant:

  • At least 1,700 deaths could have been prevented in Pennsylvania hospitals alone if BSN prepared nurses had comprised 60 percent of the of the nursing staff and the nurse patient ratios had been set 4 to 1. "

  • When this study first surfaced, they left the second part out and only referred to the 60% of staff being BSN as a preventative measure in deaths. I have a feeling that the nurse/patient ratio had a little more to do with that.

    You could have an all BSN staff that graduated at the top of their class. It won't matter much if they are still taking 8+ patients with no PCT or clerk to help out.

    I think that we need to quit bickering over education and start focusing on demanding nurse/patient ratios that are safe, that will truely cut down on med errors and hospital deaths. Oooh, let's look for studies on that now.

    • I agree with you, education doesn't mean much until you get experience and can apply what you have learned. I have worked w/ many BSN prepared nurses, who come out of school unprepared. One program (BSN) in our area had a pass rate of 69% on their state boards. Most of the ADN programs have a pass rate in the high 90's.

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    So many commetns about hospitals wanting all BSN staff. WHY? I find that amazing. Yes, I am aware of all RN hospitals (there are many here) but I am one of the lucky ones.

    My hospital sees the value of LPNs and strives to improve our scope within the BON.

    I work in a great hospital, one where pt care comes first and the need to advertise "we have an all RN staff" is not needed to bring pts our way. Excellent pt outcome and personal care are all we need.

    How fortunate for you LPNer that you have that kind of environment. Where I live LPN's are relegated to LTC and handle 27 to 35 patients apiece. I have to say that there are some LPN's that I would rather have at my side than some of the RN's I have worked with in the past. So feel blessed because not all LPN's have the same

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    In most other careers those with Bachelors make more then those with Associates, and I don't quite understand why it is different in nursing???? Can someone please clear this up, thanks :)

    In some facilities, if you want to be in administration, or even just the head nurse on the ward, you must have at least a BSN. One of those facilities would be the Veteran's Administration medical centers. I am sure that some other facilities also follow this protocal.

    In the VA's that do research, I am pretty sure the RNs must have at least their BSN. And their salary usually reflects the level of education. Except for the highest positions in the VA system of care, years in practice and grade will also reflect one's pay.

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    If I were young and eligible for grants I might to the BSN as the first stop. But I am not young and single. And with 3 kids to support it just doesn't make sense for us to pay for the BSN. QUOTE]

    You don't have to be young to get grants. In fact, people who have children are more likely to get gants, and more money than people who don't. I would fill out the FAFSA if I were you. It's free, and the worst that could happen is they deny you financial aid, but at least you will know.

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    Hi I am a LPN and have practiced this profession for more than 15 years. What is more than scary to me is the stereo typing that has been placed on the degree as opposed to the practice in and of itself.

    I work in a facility which is comprised of 95% Registered Nurses. Yet, I find that all too often the money is what concerns them. Yes compensation is definitely a huge issue, but more than that, the attention they (nurses) pay to patients is the fundemental skill that I find is missing.

    All too often, the arguement is made that LPNs do not possess the skills or knowlege to perform a great deal of functions within the clinical setting. I disagree. Anyone can be taught a clinical skill and learn the theory behind it. However, I find that several RN's lack the basic understanding or concern for what it is that they are doing or supposed to be doing. From starting peripheral lines, dropping ng tubes, clearing PEGs, hanging TPN to Albumin, they lack the basic skills.

    What makes a nurse a nurse is the ability to perform clinical skills and assessments with competency, to make clinical observations and act upon those observations based upon the nursing process. This is further exemplified by providing accurate information to the oncoming nurse that is relevant to the patients that are in thier charge.

    If the matter was simply about management and clinical research, then we could safely say that an Associate degree nurse or an LPN with a degree in management and/or clinical research would be able to function on the same level as that of a BSN.

    What is important? The ability to look at labs and interpret them and the understanding of the disease process and it's manifestations.

    Taking these points into consideration and then applying them to the clinical process of nursing (the practicum) is what determines a "nurses" ability to preform thier JOB. It ceratinly is not who is ACLS certified, I am, alot of lay people are, it certainly is not who is Telemetry certified, I am, all monitor techs are. It is all about moving what you have from a book to the floor.

    Do I discount the efforts of degreed nurse? Absolutely not, after 15 years of being a floor nurse I have finally been blessed to go back to school to pursue my RN and transition into the Masters Program.

    Politically healthcare has been negatively impacted over the the last ten years. Poor insurance, no insurance. Equipment is scarce and the physical resources are limited and at the very least mentally and physically taxing. Ecomonic challenges and inflation in the cost of living may very well have distacted many. But again the issue at hand is not about the money, it is simply about nursing.

    Should there be a difference in compensation? Yes, and it should be based upon clinical competency as opposed to the the XYZ behind the name. Just because there is an BSN behind the name does not mean that the person is more efficient or effective than the ADN that stands besides them.

    Written not to offend, but instead express my observation.:icon_hug:

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    Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

    Nevermind. I decided not to go there. Sorry.

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    Specializes in cardiac/critical care/ informatics.

    Originally Posted by cancergirl

    In most other careers those with Bachelors make more then those with Associates, and I don't quite understand why it is different in nursing???? Can someone please clear this up, thanks

    Because they do the same job, side by side nursing on floor whether you have ADN or BSN they are doing the same job.

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    Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.

    this thread is over a year old.

    "the adn/bsn debate has been discussed extensively here.

    please see this thread which contains links to previous discussions and articles to assist in nursing papers: adn vs. bsn for entry level nursing

    please keep all future discussion on this thread for future students use. "

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