Why do some Medstudents love to belittle nurses?

talaxandra · Mar 31, 2011

Someone awhile back mentioned a scenario where if the students were punished for this they could pursue some type of legal action for having thier "Career ruined " etc. Even if it were against the school you would become involved and dragged into it.

That was me - my point (and I acknowledge it was a rather lengthy post) is that there's no knowing where this could end up, so you need to weigh the likely impact of you taking this further, to you and to the student, against the potential for a positive outcome. If what you were reporting was either an incident in a clinical setting, or where there was potential for harm, then the balance would impel me to act; in this case, it wouldn't.

Batman25 · Mar 31, 2011

You are giving a few morons on a social networking site too much power, control, and way too much of your time. They wanted to tick you off and they did. Learn while you are young not to give so much of your power away to people who don't deserve it. This is a dumb incident on a FB account. It would be a totally different scenario had this happened on the job. Truth is most medical students are really nice and really eager to learn from nurses.

mike109810 · Mar 31, 2011

Thank you for expressing your sentiments. My brother will be starting med school in the fall, and I am hopeful that he will take the same opinion as you hold of nurses, and realize that there is value in learning from the nurses who can guide you.
As I have stated previously, I have had a few med students in my OR who have "poo-pooed" my suggestions. For example, I warned one student out in the scrub bay that the surgeon would be expecting him to fully participate in the surgery, and that he should expect to hold retractors without the surgeon having to ask, and for him to suction when appropriate in order to truly assist with the surgery. His response was, "Oh, yeah. You are my professor now, huh? You think I haven't already thought of these things?" Apparently he hadn't, because the surgeon completely lit him up when he was not focused on the surgery and did not anticipate the needs of the attending during surgery. The surgeon got fed up with his inability to focus and told him that he was about as useful as a piece of furniture and made him drop scrub.
This is rare. Most of the students are eager to learn. Most are a bit hesitant to jump in because they don't want to do something wrong and then look like idiots. I can imagine how these students must feel, because they are under the microscope and want to ensure that they are doing things the right way. They are being judged by not only the attending, but also by the resident. It must be very stressful for them. I believe it is not only prudent to give them a "heads up" when working with a particularly difficult surgeon, but it is also my duty to the pt in regards to safety that the student understands these expectations.
I will continue to go out of my way to make med students feel comfortable in an unfamiliar environment. Nobody is comfortable in a new environment, and I also realize that sometimes the sheer anxiety of being scrubbed in will overload their brains, leading them to make careless mistakes. If I can somehow decrease the static of anxiety, then I know that the student will be more focused on the surgery and thus be better prepared for engaging in and remembering the important points in the surgery.

Thank you for the kind words (and for the kudos to other posters). Best of luck to your brother, I am sure he is in for a fun-filled time .

The example you gave is one that I have almost experience myself. I was entering the OR when the scrub nurse informed me of certain "expectations" the surgeon had of every student, and believe me, I was GRATEFUL for the heads-up, since this particular surgeon had a "reputation" of chewing out students who don't follow his expectations. It shows that the student in your scenario paid the price of not listening by getting chewed-out by the surgeon.

I do agree that most students are super eager to learn from everyone who has contact with the patients, especially the nurses who spend countless hours with the patients, and have a great handle on patient management and techniques. I appreciate that you are willing to go out of your way to help the poor med students, your efforts are most DEFINITELY appreciated! A kind nurse definitely makes some of the "anxiety" a bit easier to bear.

canesdukegirl, BSN, RN · Mar 31, 2011

Mike, when I say that arrogant med students will usually hang themselves without the help of nurses, I must share this story with you:

A med student was scrubbed in with a very focused and efficient trauma attending. This attending was former military, as most of our trauma docs are. He gives clear and concise direction to his residents and med students and does not suffer fools easily. The med student was completely full of himself, not focused on the surgery, but looking around constantly to see what was going on in the room and making small talk with the anesthesia provider. The med student had one job: to suction. After the 3rd time of being reminded by the attending to suction so that he could suture, (big ex-lap case) the attending yelled, "Why aren't you suctioning? You are supposed to suck. You are a med student. You should get a T-shirt that says 'I am a med student and I suck.'" The student wasn't quite so cocky after that incident!

Thankfully, there are very few med students that I have encountered who are arrogant. The vast majority are focused and appreciate all of the pearls of wisdom that nurses share with them. I love helping these students learn. My reward is seeing the utter look of relief on their faces when I fill them in on what they should and shouldn't do while in the OR, or showing them what each instrument is for and when the surgeon will ask for it.

I strongly believe that if you make your thoughts and your actions positive, you will receive positive things in your life.

Purple_Scrubs, BSN, RN · Mar 31, 2011

OP, I know you have already decided to drop it, and I think that is a good plan of action. But next time you are faced with this, try asking yourself what you want. What do you hope to gain? The evaluate your options based on whether they will support that goal or not.

If what you want is for these clowns to have a different opinion of nurses, do you think that reporting them to someone will achieve that? I doubt it. It might in fact confirm in their minds that nurses are so silly and petty as to raise a big deal about a facebook comment. If what you want is to hurt or punish them for their comments, perhaps because their comments were hurtful to you, then that does seem rather petty, and you might examine your motivations and your own insecurities that make you feel so strongly about comments that you know are ridiculous.

I doubt there is really anything you can do or say that would change these fools minds anyway. It will take experience to do that, and if they make it further in their medical program they are in for a rude awakening if they bring that attitude into the hospital!

Just thought that this perspective might be helpful if you are faced with a similar issue in the future.

Altra, BSN, RN · Mar 31, 2011

I just don't understand how on earth i could be dragged down too as some of the other posts have been saying? can someone please clarify? How could i get in trouble for reporting behavior? All answers appreciated
Also, in this situation, i am going to just ignore them- but this is for future reference.

LPNWeezy, if I understand you correctly, you are asking how you could get in to some kind of trouble "officially" -- as in disciplinary action from your employer or something like that.

If I am correct ... here's my :twocents: :

This is not a situation where action on your part would be likely to have direct disciplinary consequences for you. But getting dragged down into the mud does not have to be "official" -- it can also be a figurative thing. If you gain the reputation as being difficult to work with, easily offended, etc. ... well, let's just say your life does not get any easier. This does not in any way equal being a doormat -- just being secure enough in your own person to not bother with or be sucked into the drama behavior by those who behave badly in public.

If you had pursued this matter with a dean or other official at the medical school these students attend, you would have placed them in a difficult bind. They would then be faced with the decision of whether or not to intrude on one or more students' personal interactions outside of classroom/clinicals. This incident was nothing more than a grade-school-level playground exchange, just with technology applied. Can you appreciate how undesirable it would be to be asked to "do something" about this?

Consider this too -- in the nurse world there is a stereotype of an insensitive, overbearing physician. How much does that stereotype inhibit what could otherwise be better nurse-physician interaction? I'm just throwing this out there --do you think that in the physician world, there could be a stereotype of an overly emotional, easily offended nurse? And would that stereotype also inhibit better inteaction? Did engaging in this FB exchange put some underlying nurse-physician tensions on public display and therefore help perpetuate these tensions?

Food for thought.

LPNweezy · Mar 31, 2011

Wow thanks everyone, I haven't been in a lot of situations like this so i do not know the consequences of some of these. This thread has taught me a lot, actually. I'm glad i learned some of this situational knowledge here rather than in real life.

allnurses Guide · Apr 2, 2011

Wow thanks everyone, I haven't been in a lot of situations like this so i do not know the consequences of some of these. This thread has taught me a lot, actually. I'm glad i learned some of this situational knowledge here rather than in real life.

It basically comes down to a calculation of - are the comments negatively affecting your life to such an extent that you want to involve a third party . . .because it will be time consuming and draw more fire towards you. If the attack was personal and could affect your reputation, it would probably be worth it (to me). If it was schoolyard taunting along the lines of second grade boys running around giving each other cootie shots nyyyehhhh not worth it - somebody mentioned the KevinMD blog that was respectful of nurses. There are just as many doc blogs who trash nurses, and some have huge followings. It's not illegal to be as ^**. Before Facebook these guys would be making prank calls, slamming the phone down and having fits of laughter. :uhoh21:

hiddencatRN, BSN, RN · Apr 2, 2011

This was a conversation outside the hospital, over the internet.

In that case, ignore and move on.

XingtheBBB, BSN, RN · Apr 2, 2011

I'm too lazy to read this all. Cockiness isn't worth my time. But, yet... I gotta know... Is this coming from SDN?

SDN was my first thought when I read the title and then when I read the first couple posts. What a breeding ground for political BS and they aren't doing their impressionable members any favors by setting them up to believe that they should be posturing.

allthaticanbe · Apr 2, 2011

^ It was not SDN, and let not make it an allnurses vs SDN thread. That websites has many good and bad post just like here. (Lets not ignore the many doctor bashing threads here)

By the way it was Facebook

ppfd, BSN, EMT-P · Apr 6, 2011

I stopped reading after I seen "friend of a friend" and facebook. How old are you?

As far as med students, and residents. I've had nothing but great encounters with both. Last year I ran into a long lost co worker, he was a Paramedic and was finishing up med school doing a some rounds.