Ok, first of all let me say that I want this thread to be productive and not be reduced to flaming one another...
I just finished reading another thread where a student posted an initiative started by the state of CA (in 2001)that supported a bill being passed for the BSN to be the entry point into the nursing profession and all others with their ASN would be grandfathered in.
There were a few comments posted that started to border on being peeved about this even being a remote possibility and I could predict that if the thread were to continue there would be posts flaming one another back and forth about whether or not the nursing profession should progress to that point.
So, my question to all that want to remain civil about this idea, is what if men dominated the nursing profession? Would we still be talking and squabbling over the changes that should/need to be taking place in this field or would these changes have already occurred back in 2001, nationwide.
As a side note, before I even went back to school, I thought that it was so odd that the nursing field had so many entry points...a person with his or her diploma/LVN/LPN/ASN/RN are all considered to be nurses. It's absolutely unbelievable to me. I know of no other field that considers itself to be a profession that allows for so many entry points.
I've never seen a field so fragmented and resistant to change.
If men dominated the nursing profession we would make more money. Because even today men still make more money then women . (Source sociology text book)
I agree. Also, I believe there would be less abuse of nurses in general. Men just don't have the tendencies to put up with as much as women do. I realize that is not the case 100% of the time, but certainly the majority. I have worked in critical care with many men, and if a patient or family is abusive to the female nurses, they were given a male nurse and all was well. I watched this happen over and over again. I think most men seem to make a decision and stick to that decision. Many women can be talked into things that they do not really want to do (myself included).
I'm not sure that the reason there are so many entry levels into nursing is because it's a female dominated profession.
Part of the reason it persists is because so many of us don't see it as a problem.
My answer is going to be "no", if nursing were a male-dominated profession it still be have similar issues.
Tweety-
Another poster (from another thread) stated my exact feelings of why I feel having so many entry points into nursing has been problematic for our profession. (From the administration's point of view it boils down to the old theory of supply and demand). I do feel that current and past leaders in Nursing have been afraid to make the changes that so desparately need to occur in this field.
There is no nursing shortage anyplace in this country. There is only a shortage of nurses who are willing to work in a hospital.
Have you considered that, perhaps if potential nurses had to spend four years in school, and it wasn't such "quick" road to a good paying job, that nursing would make more of an effort to change what is so unpleasant about the career field, and not be so quick to continue to jump ship every couple of years?
If more of an effort was needed to become a nurses we would have more of a stake in our career. You don't see doctors, pharmacists, Physical Therapists, etc, leaving their profession the way nurses do. Why is that? Yes, they have a better quality of life than nurses do, and if they don't, they make alot more money to compensate them for the unpleasant aspects of it. And they also have alot more control than we do. The control that they have allows them to make their job more tolerable.
Nurses just don't seem to have the attitude that nursing is a career, not just a job. We allow ourselves to be bullied out of lousy working condition, only to go somewhere else long enough until we cannot tolerate that job either. And hospitals just love it when experienced nurses leave, and then they can hire a new grad for half the pay. We play right into their hands when we play "musical employment". Longer education times would do alot to solve that. And by the way, Physical Therapy ASSISTANTS have an two year Associates Degree as entry into practice. We ought to be ashamed.
When you have spend four or more years to get into the profession, you have more of a stake in it, and are more willing to stick around and change what is bad. JMHO, and my NY $0.02.
"You call that a broken leg? Lemme tell you about a broken leg!"
Nursing is female dominated because we have traditionally (and biologically) been the caregivers - wives, mommies, elementary school teachers. There IS some grouding in biology and men who enjoy this type of work are simply not as plentiful.
If men dominated nursing the salaries would be better. The patient experience would be different as men don't tend to put up with as much as women do.
For those who want the only entry point for nursing to be a BSN, my opinion is that there should remain many points of entry into the nursing profession. The goal of most who do not have a BSN should be to eventually get a BSN but it serves many women well to be able to get into the profession and earn a decent salary. Some marry young and get left with the kids, some cannot afford 4 years of school, and I'm sure there are as many other reasons as there are nurses who do not have their BSNs. Historically many points of entry have served us well, both male and female.
Anyone ever consider that a large part of the nursing profession's problems are due to the fact that men DO dominate nursing -- in the form of employers, administrators, and management?
We're not autonomous at the staff nurse level, we're not professionals, we're just employees and essentially we have no bargaining power. JMO.
By the time I graduate (ADN), I will have completed 5 years of college; 1 year part-time getting caught up (pre-algebra, etc.), 2 years full-time pre-reqs, and then the two years it will take to earn my ADN. All of the time spent away from my family would make me think loong and hard about jumping ship, not to mention my hard work. Of course I plan on earning my BSN in a couple years when my kids are in high school, but when the pay difference is soo minimal between ADN/BSN, I can wait. My
Many of us are second career RN'S and would not have considered nursing if it required 4 more years of college...I know I would not have gone gone through 4 more years. Much of first part of 4 year degree program is indoctrination courses, not realted to the field of nursing. The ASN/ADN programs I am familiar with "cut to the chase," with classes directly related to the profession without all the fluff.
I'm not sure if you are implying that BSN nurses are more qualified, or better nurses but in my experience there is absolutely no difference in the practice, success, nursing prowess, outcomes, intelligence or abilites of a BSN vs. ADN/ASN graduate.
I have an ADN (Associate Degree Nursing) degree and put more effort and sacrifice into that degree than when I went to college the first time for Criminal Justice.
***snip*** I know of no other field that considers itself to be a profession that allows for so many entry points.
I've never seen a field so fragmented and resistant to change.
Not true.
Every other industry has multiple entry points too. In fact, healthcare is one of the few industries that mandate specific certifications to work in specific positions in that particular field.
Example#1-- take a few book keeping classes, and be an accountant. this happens all the time. it is not regulated that in order to act as an accountant for someone or some firm, that you must be a registered accountant. It simply gives your qualifications more weight.
Example #2-- Be a sales manager. Some have an MBA, some have high school. Some wear a suit to work, others, jeans and a hard hat.
If men dominated the pay would be higher as men are still paid higher than women in the same job even in today's day and age.
Also, there are many men in managerial positions in this field. They run hospitals, nursing homes, etc. Things don't change because they whether it be males or females in charge they don't want to spend the money needed to do what is right. If you want nurses to stay in the field particularly bedside nursing raise the wages and get better staffing ratios TODAY.
Also, many nurses have four year college degrees in other fields. Some even have advanced degrees beyond that. I am one of them. I don't look down on any RN with an AA. They are often 68-70 credits in addition to tons of clinical hours on top of that. If they can pass the nursing board they earn the title RN.
Anyone ever consider that a large part of the nursing profession's problems are due to the fact that men DO dominate nursing -- in the form of employers, administrators, and management?
We're not autonomous at the staff nurse level, we're not professionals, we're just employees and essentially we have no bargaining power. JMO.
I am not sure I agree. I am not sure this has anything to do with man versus woman. I have worked for both male and female dominated admin teams. The bottom line was always $$$. The concept of making a buck transcends any gender based argument IMHO.
In my humble opinion and years of experience, I do not feel having a male in charge makes much difference. Been there, done that! Most males show favortism by letting certain females have their way and this doesn't "fly" with the other nurses on the unit. We, as nurses, are independent, verbal, bold, and not easily intimidated and I've been told can be sometimes right down rude, when we are pushed into a corner, of course:argue:. I don't think a male is really going to change the way nursing is, unless males want to change the way they are. F.Y.I., father was a nurse for 35 years and retired 10 years ago. Things aren't going to change in your lifetime, they've not changed for the past 50 years. I think that each state and each hospital "makes" or "breaks" their own success. What I do think needs to happen, and from personal experience only, is director/manager/leaders need to stop trying to be their employee's best friends. I don't think you can do that and truly lead a group of people. I'm there to listen, be compassionate, but I'm not your friend to hang out with. I think it distorts the individuality and leads to prejudice. It's sort of like being your child's best friend, you're not expected to be and it just doesn't work. I think the employees need to know what's expected of them and that the leader doesn't show favortism. Whew!!! Sorry about the long reply.
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tk3100
85 Posts
I agree. Also, I believe there would be less abuse of nurses in general. Men just don't have the tendencies to put up with as much as women do. I realize that is not the case 100% of the time, but certainly the majority. I have worked in critical care with many men, and if a patient or family is abusive to the female nurses, they were given a male nurse and all was well. I watched this happen over and over again. I think most men seem to make a decision and stick to that decision. Many women can be talked into things that they do not really want to do (myself included).