Ok, first of all let me say that I want this thread to be productive and not be reduced to flaming one another...
I just finished reading another thread where a student posted an initiative started by the state of CA (in 2001)that supported a bill being passed for the BSN to be the entry point into the nursing profession and all others with their ASN would be grandfathered in.
There were a few comments posted that started to border on being peeved about this even being a remote possibility and I could predict that if the thread were to continue there would be posts flaming one another back and forth about whether or not the nursing profession should progress to that point.
So, my question to all that want to remain civil about this idea, is what if men dominated the nursing profession? Would we still be talking and squabbling over the changes that should/need to be taking place in this field or would these changes have already occurred back in 2001, nationwide.
As a side note, before I even went back to school, I thought that it was so odd that the nursing field had so many entry points...a person with his or her diploma/LVN/LPN/ASN/RN are all considered to be nurses. It's absolutely unbelievable to me. I know of no other field that considers itself to be a profession that allows for so many entry points.
I've never seen a field so fragmented and resistant to change.
2nd, i was just talking about this with a teacher i work with!
i believe there are too many entry points. i have worked with adns, lpns both who i learned tons from and would trust to do any of the skills that i perform and would rather they do them because they are more skilled than i, that said, i still believe in order to advance our profession from handmaidens to professionals, a vital and unique part of the wellness and recovery of a patient, we need to have a consistent and high standards.
oh and vote and write to our leaders and value ourselves as professionals who make a difference!
About entry points. I acually see the merit in a BSN minimum entry - and I'm an ADN RN!! ONLY because I think that it reflects our level of education and professionalism more accurately. If we collectively did move to that, it would have to be a gradual procession, with full grandfather clauses and with the full support of the current ADN nursing schools, in my opinion. Which makes it sort of pie-in-the-sky. But theoretically, I like it!
Because it elevates nursing as a profession with an education, rather than a job with training. Dig?
And as far as the boys go - I really like them too.
Seriously - if men were more equally represented in nursing, I think we would all be better off. Which ticks me off royally, but that's reality. We'd have more respect, better staffing and more money.
As far as boys causing the problems, I don't know. That's an interesting question....
Administration (at least around here) tends to be non-nurses. RNs who are men do rise through the ranks quickly sometimes, but in my experience, they don't run the hospitals. Those fellows are money-men. Actually, one I know is a paramedic, but sometimes I wonder.
As a sidenote, the male nurses that I know (including the one that I share a bed with) aren't any more "compassionate caregiving sweet kind" necessarily than any other guy I have been with. I mean, you can't really stereotype. Honestly, I know one guy that I dislike intensely, one who has some more traditionally "feminine" characteristics and at least 5-6 that are really, really tough, masculine dudes. Seriously.
If men dominated the nursing profession we would make more money. Because even today men still make more money then women . (Source sociology text book)
I learned that is sociology too. They used teaching as an example, teachers' salaries started to increase after more men started coming into the profession....
1. Tend to go into areas that are higher demand/higher pay. (Think critical care, anesthesia, etc.)
2. Are inclined to talk about money, and feel little discomfort in negotiating about it. (Someone who won't negotiate compensation should not complain about getting paid badly).
3. Tend to not take time off for family issues, so we tend to have longer, more consistent track records.
4. Are less inclined to take crap from abusive management types. Men who are confronted by idiots seldom go off "for a good cry." Usually, we will deal with the issue at hand.
5. Men just don't think it shameful to make a good living off their work. Every few weeks, you can be sure to find a thread on this site along the lines of "would I work for $11 an hour?" Frankly, discussions like that are embarrassing.
6. Men are usually in it for a good income, and aren't as easily bought off by being named Nurse of the Century or getting a Snickers bar in May for Nurses week.
It really isn't complex. Start with an attitude of making a good income, stop being shy about talking about money, work in terms of money, negotiate, negotiate, negotiate (for example, if you're asked to work an extra shift, ask what they can give you in exchange), and always, always, always, let it be known that you'll quickly take another position if a better one comes along.
I couldn't have said it any better. Sad thing is, I see the same mentality among midwives, especially when comparing midwives to CRNAs. Now I wonder if this self-defeating behavior is related to the fact most midwives are women, and many CRNAs are male? CRNAs seem more able to play hardball with the big boys for higher pay and more success with attaining professional privileges than do midwives (I say midwives because CNMs seem to have this problem, and CPMs have it even worse.)
It's not the top spots that need to be dominated by men to get change, it's the people at bedside. Until bedside nurses band together and quit taking attempts to improve the profession as a personal slight, things will stay the way they are.
Yes, so true! I'm the kind of person who isn't afraid to open a can of worms. We must seriously stop taking offense at every attempt to improve this profession. Let's start some productive conversation on how that can happen.
Ok, first of all let me say that I want this thread to be productive and not be reduced to flaming one another...
As a side note, before I even went back to school, I thought that it was so odd that the nursing field had so many entry points...a person with his or her diploma/LVN/LPN/ASN/RN are all considered to be nurses. It's absolutely unbelievable to me. I know of no other field that considers itself to be a profession that allows for so many entry points.
I've never seen a field so fragmented and resistant to change.
So here we are, waiting for men to come rushing in and "fix" things??? I'm just kidding, don't hammer me, my son is a nurse. What many fail to realize is that the nursing profession is largely government-regulated. Boards of Nursing (and there are 50+ of them) are mandated by State Legislatures, who answer to the loudest voice, and biggest money. Regs vary from state to state for this reason. The ANA is a mere token organization with little clout. I believe that our greatest hope is the Nursing Compact. I would like to see all the states come on board, then do a little regulatory change, if possible. There is great potential for this group to something other than just regulate licensure. As for the fragmented entry-level requirements, step back and look at the big picture that nursing is today. Our levels of responsibility vary from new-grad bedside nursing to Advanced Degree / Management / Faculty. Shouldn't this be a progressive educational ladder, and experience has to be factored in. I agree that some jobs require BSN or grad level degrees. But entry level bedside nursing? Not...........
I really would rather work with guys because they seem to be less into the BS (gossip, backbiting, passive/aggressive behaviors) than the ladies I work with. If there is an issue, the guys I've worked with don't hesitate to bring it to my attention and get it fixed, as opposed to some of the ladies I work with who whine and moan to everyone else, but never confront the person they are whining about. So I think that if nursing were male dominated, we would see a lot of changes due to men being less willing to put up with BS from coworkers and management.
as much as it pains me to say,,,if more men did "run" the nursing field, at least they would be taken seriously. we can sit an type our fingers into nubs about the shortage, the less money then men, the "glass ceiling", but when it comes down to bare bones bedside care, i feel that women are best at it. i do know of some earnest, compassionate males that i have worked with, but they are few and far between. yet, i also know of alot of female nurses that i would not give the opportunity of sitting for my pet turtle.
for sure, there would be alot less moaning and whining that goes on, and pms would be only an after thought. but, think again on how it would be like if men were to reverse all roles with us women,,,,,childbirth, pms, cramps, having their nails done, bad hair days, up all night with the baby,
deadbeats moms, runner in their pantyhose, all the things that plague us females.
It is good to discuss the issues and try to see things from all sides, but at some point action needs to take place. Look to California and that state has a union. Now, it is not perfect and I am sure there are some CA nurses on these threads that can give a list of the problems, but it is a good start and from what I have read it is making some progress with staffing ratios, etc.
As far as the ASN and BSN programs, they are more similar than different. Of course, there are more classes to take to obtain a BSN, but the core classes are the same (general classes and nursing). ASN/ADN is not a mere job with training, it does require a degree (education).
With that said, we need to pull together, and stop with all that easily divides us. Each nursing role brings something to the table...LPN, ASN, BSN, MSN, etc.
We are very good at advocating for our patients...it is what drives us...however, in advocating for ourselves, it benefits our patients in the long run with proper staffing, safe ratios, education opportunities, and happy well-rounded nurses.
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:yeah:
sChOOLRN48
51 Posts
2nd, i was just talking about this with a teacher i work with!
i believe there are too many entry points. i have worked with adns, lpns both who i learned tons from and would trust to do any of the skills that i perform and would rather they do them because they are more skilled than i, that said, i still believe in order to advance our profession from handmaidens to professionals, a vital and unique part of the wellness and recovery of a patient, we need to have a consistent and high standards.
oh and vote and write to our leaders and value ourselves as professionals who make a difference!