We Must Demolish NP Diploma Mills

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · May 17, 2021

1 minute ago, subee said:

Are there not any grade requirements for granting loans to students in state schools? If not, that is a great place to start. People have a right to squander their own personal money any way they wish. I guess that's how we learned our lesson, though. It took watching students fail in college because they were admitted despite being unprepared. But Walden type entities are SCHEMES for their shareholders while SUNY's tuition goes to the state which sends it back to the schools.

No grade requirements from what I recall. The only requirement was to get into school; which it appears anyone with a pulse was accepted for the liberal arts degrees. And at the time, even if you didn’t pass the entrance exams for English or math, they just put you into classes that were below college level that have no actual college credit to make the difference. Some have to go through two or three semesters of these in order to hit the college level courses. While still being charged the normal college tuition.

To me though, the opportunity to waste that money is equivalent or similar of what for profit schools do. No barrier of entry. No expectation of passing so long as you’re willing to take the loans to continue school. You could in theory persistently go to school until you either pass or give up trying. And you’re still saddled with that debt and becoming the class of student calling for government bail outs because you were “misled”. Despite the broader school problems, even my nursing school has a higher barrier of entry than Walden. Both in terms of a GPA requirement and going through an interview to get in.

subee, MSN, CRNA · May 17, 2021

3 hours ago, djmatte said:

No grade requirements from what I recall. The only requirement was to get into school; which it appears anyone with a pulse was accepted for the liberal arts degrees. And at the time, even if you didn’t pass the entrance exams for English or math, they just put you into classes that were below college level that have no actual college credit to make the difference. Some have to go through two or three semesters of these in order to hit the college level courses. While still being charged the normal college tuition.

To me though, the opportunity to waste that money is equivalent or similar of what for profit schools do. No barrier of entry. No expectation of passing so long as you’re willing to take the loans to continue school. You could in theory persistently go to school until you either pass or give up trying. And you’re still saddled with that debt and becoming the class of student calling for government bail outs because you were “misled”. Despite the broader school problems, even my nursing school has a higher barrier of entry than Walden. Both in terms of a GPA requirement and going through an interview to get in.

Would it be different if the students were not paying with loans but were paying with their own money (for the remedial classes)? You know, I really don't know what happens at the CC level. I took an organic class for 2 semester in a CC and that lab was super well equipped and much easier to work in than the 4 year school where I took inorganic. Your situation sounds like politicians trying to manufacture programs to allow broader access to college but IMHO, it is misguided if students are assigned to fail at the taxpayer's expense. But there have been articles about this same situation with students admitted to ivy league school without the preparation required to survive so they fail to graduate in large numbers. This has to be so demoralizing that the kid might not ever try college again when the problem is, that person was in the wrong college. Grade 13!:) That's the grace year given to the student to develop their college skills and pass those regent exams. Still have those in NY?

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · May 17, 2021

46 minutes ago, subee said:

Would it be different if the students were not paying with loans but were paying with their own money (for the remedial classes)? You know, I really don't know what happens at the CC level. I took an organic class for 2 semester in a CC and that lab was super well equipped and much easier to work in than the 4 year school where I took inorganic. Your situation sounds like politicians trying to manufacture programs to allow broader access to college but IMHO, it is misguided if students are assigned to fail at the taxpayer's expense. But there have been articles about this same situation with students admitted to ivy league school without the preparation required to survive so they fail to graduate in large numbers. This has to be so demoralizing that the kid might not ever try college again when the problem is, that person was in the wrong college. Grade 13!:) That's the grace year given to the student to develop their college skills and pass those regent exams. Still have those in NY?

We didn't have a grade 13 when I went through high school in NY. Truth be told, I was a mediocre student in high school, went through a vocational option for criminal justice. I never got a regents diploma as it was back when Regents exam degrees were an option. Hence the reason I ended up in the service. I spent 9 years serving as an Intelligence analyst which lead me to a strong career in nursing and as an NP.

I'm a firm advocate that not everyone should go to college and some may also need additional prep time or time in the real world. But I also believe many colleges have and are taking advantage of the notion that all students "deserve" college or somehow they will only amount to something with it. That was the message all through my high school time.

The reality here is they are essentially doing this at their own expense with the loans they are taking. Just in terms of loans. But they were still taking up to 4 years for a two year degree if they got that far at all. That is costing them (or the taxpayers) almost twice as much for a degree that in most cases gets them little to nothing. No new skills. Just a liberal arts associates.

londonflo · May 17, 2021

43 minutes ago, subee said:

Would it be different if the students were not paying with loans but were paying with their own money (for the remedial classes)?

Our CC students are not eligible for any type of state aid (Pell grants, loans etc) for remediation courses.

subee, MSN, CRNA · May 17, 2021

3 hours ago, londonflo said:

Our CC students are not eligible for any type of state aid (Pell grants, loans etc) for remediation courses.

And that's why we need grade 13. They used to have it in Canada but dropped it years ago. For financial reasons? I don't know. But IMHO is makes long term financial sense to support SELECT students to give them the opportunity to succeed.

SmilingBluEyes · May 18, 2021

13 hours ago, subee said:

Are there not any grade requirements for granting loans to students in state schools? If not, that is a great place to start. People have a right to squander their own personal money any way they wish. I guess that's how we learned our lesson, though. It took watching students fail in college because they were admitted despite being unprepared. But Walden type entities are SCHEMES for their shareholders while SUNY's tuition goes to the state which sends it back to the schools.

Well I don't know about that. Student forgiveness legislation is always out there with someone trying to pass it. Sooner or later, it will probably will, at least in part. Then the rest of us who paid as we went and amassed zero debt will pay for it in our taxes. I have a real problem with that myself but I am mixed. I understand the burden but I think schools and parents/guardians need to be real with kids. Amassing 100s of 1000s of dollars in debt is a terrible way to start any career except one where you can make millions of $$$! And a lot of those people did not go to college at all.

I raised my kids never to accumulate such school debt ever. And they didn't. My daughter did her first 2 years of college at high school. (paid for by the state). My son was a technical school graduate and makes a pretty good living now.

subee, MSN, CRNA · May 18, 2021

Whether we have student foregiveness has nothing to do with whether Walden will stop pushing loans onto students because Walden doesn't have to pay them back. If we forgive all of the loans just the for-profit schools extracted from their students..well, I have no idea what it will cost but I don't think it's fair to the taxpayer to pay for someone else's stupidity. But maybe we needed to have the crisis before we got the point. Students should pay their loans back because then the entire loan system buckles. Someone more clever than I will have to consider how to re-structure the payments and we would certainly lose some money in the process but I can't see any fairer way out of it except to collect from the schools who were the biggest scammers and put liens on them. So many of them are out of existence but we need to make even more of them extinct.

SmilingBluEyes · May 18, 2021

7 hours ago, subee said:

Whether we have student foregiveness has nothing to do with whether Walden will stop pushing loans onto students because Walden doesn't have to pay them back. If we forgive all of the loans just the for-profit schools extracted from their students..well, I have no idea what it will cost but I don't think it's fair to the taxpayer to pay for someone else's stupidity. But maybe we needed to have the crisis before we got the point. Students should pay their loans back because then the entire loan system buckles. Someone more clever than I will have to consider how to re-structure the payments and we would certainly lose some money in the process but I can't see any fairer way out of it except to collect from the schools who were the biggest scammers and put liens on them. So many of them are out of existence but we need to make even more of them extinct.

Yes to all of this, especially the part I bolded.

subee, MSN, CRNA · May 18, 2021

45 minutes ago, SmilingBluEyes said:

Yes to all of this, especially the part I bolded.

It cost Trump $25,000,000 and closure of his Trump "University". That's a good start.

ajdizzle43, LPN, LVN · May 24, 2021

Delete Double Post

ajdizzle43, LPN, LVN · May 24, 2021

On 2/16/2021 at 12:44 AM, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

It has nothing to do with jealousy, and no one is putting down students who are furthering their education. Concerns and criticism towards curriculum content and delivery, rigor, standardization of clinicals, admission criteria, and cost of education are all valid concerns and should not be taken as a personal attack.

To dismiss such criticism as jealousy is a cop out to try to keep one's ego from being bruised.

A degree does NOT equal an education.

*Disclaimer* I am an LVN on track to receive a Master's degree in <Economics not related to nursing>. In the same time, it took for me to (finally) pass LVN school (2 years), I will have obtained 2 higher-level degrees, GRE's and all. However, I will never become an RN, my grades are too low for RN school. Understandably, I recognize the academic and mental rigor that it takes to become an RN, (and NP), and commend such standards necessary for acceptance. We pride our nursing practice on the "levels of skill obtainment" (CNA, LVN, RN, NP, ect) using academic rigors which standardize our nursing model for each level of practice.

As I approach 20 years of being an LVN, I also acknowledge the economic and academic benefit of filling the market with highly educated NP's. I apologize for the rambling, however, could veterans in the nursing field kindly explain what the "problem" is with too many "highly educated" nurses filling the market? Everyone enrolled at the NP schools in question are educated RN's, and required to pass mandated licensing boards to become NP's; therefore, is the NP licensing operation too "easy" for the level of education RN's are capable of? Forgive me, but is this not what the nursing practice wanted? Highly educated nurses (RN, BSN required, ect?) with advanced level degrees? Y'all are such smart, amazing nurses, and I marvel at the work that it takes to nurse at such a high level, regardless of the school in attendance.

Although I am an LPN on the outside of this debate, it is fascinating to me to listen, learn, and have a glimpse of a nursing world I can never experience. I appreciate all who have contributed to these open conversations and discussions. Thank you for your time, fellow AN nurses.

subee, MSN, CRNA · May 24, 2021

5 hours ago, ajdizzle43 said:

*Disclaimer* I am an LVN on track to receive a Master's degree in <Economics not related to nursing>. In the same time, it took for me to (finally) pass LVN school (2 years), I will have obtained 2 higher-level degrees, GRE's and all. However, I will never become an RN, my grades are too low for RN school. Understandably, I recognize the academic and mental rigor that it takes to become an RN, (and NP), and commend such standards necessary for acceptance. We pride our nursing practice on the "levels of skill obtainment" (CNA, LVN, RN, NP, ect) using academic rigors which standardize our nursing model for each level of practice.

As I approach 20 years of being an LVN, I also acknowledge the economic and academic benefit of filling the market with highly educated NP's. I apologize for the rambling, however, could veterans in the nursing field kindly explain what the "problem" is with too many "highly educated" nurses filling the market? Everyone enrolled at the NP schools in question are educated RN's, and required to pass mandated licensing boards to become NP's; therefore, is the NP licensing operation too "easy" for the level of education RN's are capable of? Forgive me, but is this not what the nursing practice wanted? Highly educated nurses (RN, BSN required, ect?) with advanced level degrees? Y'all are such smart, amazing nurses, and I marvel at the work that it takes to nurse at such a high level, regardless of the school in attendance.

Although I am an LPN on the outside of this debate, it is fascinating to me to listen, learn, and have a glimpse of a nursing world I can never experience. I appreciate all who have contributed to these open conversations and discussions. Thank you for your time, fellow AN nurses.

I am in awe of anyone who got a master's in economics! I can't answer your question however about the NP boards. Personally the nursing boards were very easy for me and the CRNA boards were "just right". Difficult, but taking a review course made them very doable. However, that was after attending a program of study much more intense than an NP Program that can be completed part-time or online. Realistically, if NP's were required to endure that type of program, we would never produce enough. But we can do better than accrediting diploma mills like Walden.