We Must Demolish NP Diploma Mills

[cprimavera]

What is AANP doing with those programs??? I think we should unite to take an action on such diploma mills.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

On 5/13/2021 at 7:01 PM, PsychNurse24 said:

Sorry, not sorry that you don’t understand what accreditation means. You don’t understand that classes have to compare. You don’t understand that I know people that have graduated from Walden and are practicing. I will let you know when I graduate and start practicing.  My daughter, who also graduated from Walden, passed her boards and has a job.  No, Walden does not have a record of poor educational outcomes, you’re just lying there.  Like I said, why don’t you be a big boy or girl and work to either improve educations from your so-called diploma mill universities or work with the ANCC about credentialing.   It’s easy to take pot shots at universities and other nurses. Do something!!

The problem is that, since Walden doesn't publish graduation rates or board rates, we can never know how responsible it is to it's students.  I would be here saying the same thing about Penn, Yale or Duke if they didn't give their students this  information.

[londonflo]

On 5/13/2021 at 5:54 PM, PsychNurse24 said:

The classes at all universities, whether it’s Duke University or Walden, have to compare. That is how universities are accredited.

No (that is NOT how accreditation works,) from someone (me) with a lot of accreditation experience, each school must meet the MINIMUM requirements and  those who are somewhat deficient/fully deficient are not given full accreditation. Instead these schools  are given a future  date for another evaluation to give time to meet their deficiencies.  

I sincerely doubt the accreditation reports of Duke and Walden would compare. 

https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/walden-university/scorecard/

And with the specific accreditation problems with Walden.. here you go:

https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_PublicDisclosureNotices/Public Disclosure Notice - Walden University 11.9.20.pdf

 

[djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP]

55 minutes ago, subee said:

The unfortunate part is this is being seen even in state schools and they are making a killing on students inability to meet standards and consistently taking school loans for degrees they will never make enough money to pay off. I went to a small SUNY school in upstate NY which had a phenomenal RN program. But as I took my undergrad courses, I noticed a substantial population from NYC (which was strange for a middle of nowhere agricultural school). Many of these students struggled in basic college courses (Or precollege courses) and would take upwards of four years for a two year degree. The school heavily recruited in the city. They even offered incentives like a free bus trip home every weekend which was a four hour trip by vehicle to keep the student pipeline open. I can’t imagine the student debt they incurred during those years. 

[londonflo]

On 5/13/2021 at 5:54 PM, PsychNurse24 said:

The classes at all universities, whether it’s Duke University or Walden, have to compare. That is how universities are accredited.

No (that is NOT how accreditation works,) from someone (me) with a lot of accreditation experience, each school must meet the MINIMUM requirements and  those who are somewhat deficient/fully deficient are not given full accreditation. Instead these schools  are given a future  date for another evaluation to give time to meet their deficiencies.  

I sincerely doubt the accreditation reports of Duke and Walden would compare. 

https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/walden-university/scorecard/

 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

2 hours ago, djmatte said:

The unfortunate part is this is being seen even in state schools and they are making a killing on students inability to meet standards and consistently taking school loans for degrees they will never make enough money to pay off. I went to a small SUNY school in upstate NY which had a phenomenal RN program. But as I took my undergrad courses, I noticed a substantial population from NYC (which was strange for a middle of nowhere agricultural school). Many of these students struggled in basic college courses (Or precollege courses) and would take upwards of four years for a two year degree. The school heavily recruited in the city. They even offered incentives like a free bus trip home every weekend which was a four hour trip by vehicle to keep the student pipeline open. I can’t imagine the student debt they incurred during those years. 

I mentored a kid from downstate who was enrolled in the program like you mention and she ended upstate for college.  There is a big difference between programs set up to simply created money for shareholders as opposed to programs to subsidise students as an investment in vulnerable youth.   Today she has a master's degree and is a school teacher.  I'd say that was a pretty sound investment in developing future tax payers:)  There's no way she could have afforded to pay for a busride home on vacation breaks.  She wouldn't even have had warm clothes if we didn't buy them for her.  She paid for her own grad program because she COULD. 

[londonflo]

On 5/13/2021 at 5:54 PM, PsychNurse24 said:

My view is that my daughter has graduated from Walden, passed her boards on her first attempt, and before even passing her boards had a job offer. I know two other people who have graduated from NP programs at Walden University.

 

On 5/13/2021 at 6:01 PM, PsychNurse24 said:

You don’t understand that I know people that have graduated from Walden and are practicing. I will let you know when I graduate and start practicing.  My daughter, who also graduated from Walden, passed her boards and has a job.  No, Walden does not have a record of poor educational outcomes, 

Yes, there have been many negative comments on Walden from me and others. I just want to ask why this school, at this time seems to be the one you and family love. Why did you not choose another online schools (or brick and border school). There had to be something that made you sign on:

1)  Family history (what we used to call 'legacy'

1. A legacy student is someone whose parent or other family member attended the same college.
2. Legacy students often receive a big boost in admissions at private universities in the U.S.

2) Sharing notes, text books with daughter

3) easy to apply, friendly voice with admission that makes things easy (transcripts)

4) no requirements besides an RN license

5) your daughter had a good experience.

6) You respect the education Walden delivers (helping with clinical placement)

7) Faculty who return answers to questions fast.

? A great library where you can look up current research (from all the main journals} 

[djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP]

2 minutes ago, subee said:

I mentored a kid from downstate who was enrolled in the program like you mention and she ended upstate for college.  There is a big difference between programs set up to simply created money for shareholders as opposed to programs to subsidise students as an investment in vulnerable youth.   Today she has a master's degree and is a school teacher.  I'd say that was a pretty sound investment in developing future tax payers:)  There's no way she could have afforded to pay for a busride home on vacation breaks.  She wouldn't even have had warm clothes if we didn't buy them for her.  She paid for her own grad program because she COULD. 

I have no doubt some received some sound schooling from this program. But I saw more people retaking classes two or more times that it made their “outreach” efforts look more like a scam the longer students were there for a basic associates. The nursing school tended to do well at graduation rates, but few of those students were from the city. 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

1 hour ago, djmatte said:

I have no doubt some received some sound schooling from this program. But I saw more people retaking classes two or more times that it made their “outreach” efforts look more like a scam the longer students were there for a basic associates. The nursing school tended to do well at graduation rates, but few of those students were from the city. 

First of all, we are speaking of different schools.  My kid went straight to a 4 year liberal arts school.  So you are saying that kids who didn't come from "the city" graduated from a nursing program from which only a few students from the city did?  Hmmmm.  Perhaps those failures needed more tutoring or needed to maintain a certain average grades in their pre-nursing classes before they were accepted into a nursing program.  I'm a great believer in grade 13. We have a family member who just wasn't ready for college in grade 12 because he was small and immature. and his parents could afford another year to give him grade 13.    He eventually went to college on a basketball scholarship (how could a person grow so much in one year?) I don't believe in paying for kids to get scholarships if they're not prepared for the rigors of college.  There's nothing shameful about going to a trade school.  After that, if and when they are ready to go to college, they can do it on the side.  But you should be complaining to your state representatives, not to us.

 

[londonflo]

32 minutes ago, subee said:

I'm a great believer in grade 13. We have a family member who just wasn't ready for college in grade 12

Remediation courses really do work wonders.. I have known many students who benefitted from them and went on to achieve nursing degrees. (Since the student has already been enrolled with taxpayer support for grades 1 - 12 our state does charge for these  'year 13" high school courses. Paying for something sometimes hits home that this is a required learning responsibility.)

 

32 minutes ago, subee said:

There's nothing shameful about going to a trade school.  After that, if and when they are ready to go to college, they can do it on the side.  But you should be complaining to your state representatives, not to us.

 

10 years ago, our community college received a great grant for 20 students to receive free tuition, scheduled clinical days on Sat/Sun, lecture on Monday evening, with the same curriculum for our other students. The schedule was created so that they could work M-F or be with their children or both. 

The students had to meet the same entry requirements.... How many of the 20  graduated? 5

 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

2 hours ago, londonflo said:

Remediation courses really do work wonders.. I have known many students who benefitted from them and went on to achieve nursing degrees. (Since the student has already been enrolled with taxpayer support for grades 1 - 12 our state does charge for these  'year 13" high school courses. Paying for something sometimes hits home that this is a required learning responsibility.)

 

10 years ago, our community college received a great grant for 20 students to receive free tuition, scheduled clinical days on Sat/Sun, lecture on Monday evening, with the same curriculum for our other students. The schedule was created so that they could work M-F or be with their children or both. 

The students had to meet the same entry requirements.... How many of the 20  graduated? 5

 

How very disappointing but not surprising.  My friends think I am harsh for not supporting free community college for all.  I am in favor of supporting free community college for those who 1.  have no money and 2. have proven scholarly skills.  That's about it:)

[djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP]

2 hours ago, subee said:

First of all, we are speaking of different schools.  My kid went straight to a 4 year liberal arts school.  So you are saying that kids who didn't come from "the city" graduated from a nursing program from which only a few students from the city did?  Hmmmm.  Perhaps those failures needed more tutoring or needed to maintain a certain average grades in their pre-nursing classes before they were accepted into a nursing program.  I'm a great believer in grade 13. We have a family member who just wasn't ready for college in grade 12 because he was small and immature. and his parents could afford another year to give him grade 13.    He eventually went to college on a basketball scholarship (how could a person grow so much in one year?) I don't believe in paying for kids to get scholarships if they're not prepared for the rigors of college.  There's nothing shameful about going to a trade school.  After that, if and when they are ready to go to college, they can do it on the side.  But you should be complaining to your state representatives, not to us.

 

This was a SUNY school that was at one time a community college. They started to add baccalaureate options for certain programs such as nursing. Most of the students that attended from the city were primarily on liberal arts pathways. Those were students I observed taking these classes multiple times while racking up all sorts of debt.  4 years for a liberal arts associates degree is an abomination imo and gives the appearance of predatory scrolling a la Walden.

I’m all for encouraging trade schools. I grew up in the 90s where college was practically the only recommended option. Kids were persistently dissuaded from any kind of manual labor.  even my school counselors were disappointed when I opted to enlist. 

In my own class of 20ish nursing students, maybe 2-3 were from the city. All of them did well except maybe one who was moved back for some clinical issues. 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

17 hours ago, djmatte said:

This was a SUNY school that was at one time a community college. They started to add baccalaureate options for certain programs such as nursing. Most of the students that attended from the city were primarily on liberal arts pathways. Those were students I observed taking these classes multiple times while racking up all sorts of debt.  4 years for a liberal arts associates degree is an abomination imo and gives the appearance of predatory scrolling a la Walden.

I’m all for encouraging trade schools. I grew up in the 90s where college was practically the only recommended option. Kids were persistently dissuaded from any kind of manual labor.  even my school counselors were disappointed when I opted to enlist. 

In my own class of 20ish nursing students, maybe 2-3 were from the city. All of them did well except maybe one who was moved back for some clinical issues. 

Are there not any grade requirements for granting loans to students in state schools? If not, that is a great place to start.  People have a right to squander their own personal money any way they wish.  I guess that's how we learned our lesson, though.  It took watching students fail in college because they were admitted despite being unprepared.    But Walden type entities are SCHEMES  for their shareholders while SUNY's tuition goes to the state which sends it back to the schools.