We Must Demolish NP Diploma Mills

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What is AANP doing with those programs??? I think we should unite to take an action on such diploma mills.

RN/WI said:

I took a poll from 5 Drs yesterday, asking about schools online verse brick and mortar. All the answers were the same :

1) We need providers for the patients , shortage of MDs , it is good there are online schools for working RNs

2) I would rather work with an experienced RN that comes from Chamberlain, Or other online programs, than an NP from a brick and mortar local with less clinical experience,

3) I have prevented and worked with , Chamberlain students that had more knowledge than some medical residents. (Depends on individual person)

4) All agreed we need NPs and the more we can provide the cost of care will be more reasonable and accessible to the patient, which is the goal.

5) All MDs agreed after me showing them this post that more economics should be mandated on Nursing so that they understand basic fiscal economics and what the current plan is , none of them saw this as an intellectual debate.

After much thought, the NPs that have such narrow minds that are insulting online NPs and actually have no idea what the majority of the Medical profession think , should enroll in :

Economics 101 and or think about serving another population than healthcare.

This isn't an online vs brick and mortar debate. It's a debate over schools with track record of being diploma Mills vs schools with actual rigor, admission standards, and outcomes that reflect a school that prepares a student appropriately. Schools like Walden or Phoenix are often failing at miserably and have shown clear predatory behavior in taking money with graduation and boards pass rates they are unwilling to disclose publicly. I can't speak for chamberlain as I've only worked with one their students during my own clinical rotations. 

Also consider this in their "cost of care" plan. Nurse practitioners are increasingly making up for MD shortages, but persistently being paid pennies on the dollar compared to our physician counterparts. We are seeing the same complexity and the same numbers of patients as them. We are performing the same procedures and exams as them as well.  But referred to as an opportunity to save.

Now in terms of reimbursement, that is typically set at 85% of what a physician bills. But our pay is often half or less of what a clinic pays a physician. $100k is typically considered appropriate for a new NP building their practice. At least half of what a board certified physician can expect. But that savings isn't passed onto the patient. That patient doesn't pay less because they see a nurse practitioner. That extra money that is billed goes straight into the pockets of the owners. More NPs only drop the cost of what insurance companies are paying by 15%. When people use us to "reduce the cost of care", what they're saying is our care isn't as respected and not worth paying us more money personally. 

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Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
18 hours ago, djmatte said:

Maybe you should *again* produce some statistics of how many people start school there, actually graduate, and actually pass boards. Because the school doesn’t make that information public. But all of those are identifiers of what is and is not a good school. And also Past that, I’ll take my experience with Walden clinical students and tell you and anyone else all day till Sunday their education is garbage and the quality of their students aren’t worth the time to even consider the school in both hiring or clinical rotations. 

Gee, even Gary Trudeau knows that:)  He's had a fun time with Walden in Doonsbury.  Any school that doesn't publish their stats has something to hide.

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Specializes in Psychiatry.
RN/WI said:

3) I have precepted and worked with , Chamberlain students that had more knowledge than some medical residents. 

Um. I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is untrue. 

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Well again , you are wrong!This is what a good friend and medical Dr.of 40 years arrested to. 

Last post on here for me , There is no debate here , in fact most people arguing this probably aren’t even real NPs....Mental needing clarity for one. 
Moving to more professional forums.

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Just now, RN/WI said:

Well again , you are wrong!This is what a good friend and medical Dr.of 40 years arrested to. 

Last post on here for me , There is no debate here , in fact most people arguing this probably aren’t even real NPs....Mental needing clarity for one. 
Moving to more professional forums.

I’m sure Reddit has a plethora of forums to blow the smoke  you are looking for. Just stay away from physician forums because many of them are more aggressive toward NPs and especially our mill schools than we are. 

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Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
RN/WI said:

I took a poll from 5 Drs yesterday, asking about schools online verse brick and mortar. All the answers were the same :

1) We need providers for the patients , shortage of MDs , it is good there are online schools for working RNs

2) I would rather work with an experienced RN that comes from Chamberlain, Or other online programs, than an NP from a brick and mortar local with less clinical experience,

3) I have precepted and worked with , Chamberlain students that had more knowledge than some medical residents. (Depends on individual person) I have no problem working with or preventing online program students. In fact they stated that NP education in general brick n mortar or online for NP is short, this is why it only matters to them the actual nursing experience and type , depending on individual again was the statement.

4) All agreed we need NPs and the more we can provide the cost of care will be more reasonable and accessible to the patient, which is the goal.

5) All MDs agreed after me showing them this post that more economics should be mandated on Nursing so that they understand basic fiscal economics and what the current plan is , none of them saw this as an intellectual debate.

After much thought, the NPs that have such narrow minds that are insulting online NPs and actually have no idea what the majority of the Medical profession think , should enroll in :

Economics 101 and or think about serving another population than healthcare.

Just to address your first point:  If we have a shortage of MD's and creating an online entity to "replace" them, why doesn't Walden just open a medical school?

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Specializes in Psychiatry.
1 hour ago, subee said:

Just to address your first point:  If we have a shortage of MD's and creating an online entity to "replace" them, why doesn't Walden just open a medical school?

Walden likely couldn't meet the criteria to meet medical school credentialing standards. 

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Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
1 hour ago, MentalKlarity said:

Walden likely couldn't meet the criteria to meet medical school credentialing standards. 

No kidding.  I don't think they meet the standards for clinical nursing either.  We deserve the same quality of standards as MD students.  Of course, what we measure may be different but the INTEGRITY of our standards shouldn't be set aside for expediency.  And it would never occur to me to pay a tons of money to any school that can't post it's graduation or exam pass rates.  

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Specializes in oncology.
RN/WI said:

2) I would rather work with an experienced RN that comes from Chamberlain, Or other online programs, than an NP from a brick and mortar local with less clinical experience,

Can I know the brick/mortar school you are referencing with a quality comparison of clinical hours? (An oversite for sure on your part since of course you would be sure to mention this) Did your MD sample know that many NP students have to pay for their preceptor, which is a conflict of interests?

djmatte said:

3) I have prevented and worked with , Chamberlain students that had more knowledge than some medical residents. (Depends on individual person)

We can accurately judge a medical students' knowledge versus a perspective NP by giving the same  test to each prospective group. These tests for medical students are well established, blueprinted, criterion referenced,  standardized and secure.

djmatte said:

5) All MDs agreed after me showing them this post that more economics should be mandated on Nursing so that they understand basic fiscal economics and what the current plan is , none of them saw this as an intellectual debate

A person possessing a highly developed intellect is a good debater.

djmatte said:

After much thought, the NPs that have such narrow minds that are insulting online NPs and actually have no idea what the majority of the Medical profession think , should enroll in :

Economics 101 and or think about serving another population than healthcare

I took Economics in college but please, tell me more about the other populations in health care (prosthetics, durable medical equipment, glucose monitors, religious communities serving healthcare agencies, animal protective agencies or any other population that follows different rules  of Economics.....PS did you take macro or micro economics or is all the same at Chamberlin?

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Specializes in oncology.
On 5/12/2021 at 7:45 PM, PsychNurse24 said:

People who are not intelligent, as you say, will not graduate from school nor will they pass the NP boards.

But they can do a lot of damage in the meantime, you betcha!

 

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Specializes in oncology.
On 5/13/2021 at 6:29 PM, PsychNurse24 said:

We take a great research  class that teaches us to evaluate evidence. I am afraid you would change your practice based on a few people’s opinions.  Come to think of it, some of my clients tell me that smoking meth helps them focus on the voices coming from the electrical outlets in their room.  I’m going to suggest to the psychiatrist that we stop discouraging people from using meth.  Surely this qualifies as expert opinion,

Good thought. BTW a GREAT research class IS part of everyone's advanced (MSN) curriculum. But the best recommendation is to start encouraging  our patients to stop meth use. 

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Specializes in Psychiatry.

People are just going to have to come to terms with the fact that going to a for-profit program comes with a large number of people doubting the quality of your school and potentially a harder time acquiring a position.

Look, those of us who went to respectable schools really put in a lot of time time and effort to get into school. It required planning over a year in advance, getting top grades in undergraduate and gaining relevant experience, taking the GRE, getting letters of recommendation, writing essays, doing in person interviews with faculty, and adhering to rigid timelines that included applying often 8-10 months in advance of a Fall start. It meant waiting on pins and needles to find out if we were deemed competent enough to undertake this journey to becoming providers.

Contrast that with for profit programs such as Walden or Chamberlain, where prospective students can basically call up a salesperson at a call center who aggressively tries to sell them a product and emphasizes how easy the process is. They require nothing beyond an application and transcripts and have monthly start dates. They accept 100% of eligible applicants and Walden alone currently has 41,000+ graduate students enrolled, graduating nearly 5,000 MSN prepared nurses annually. The for profit programs spend the lowest percentage of tuition money on actual instruction than any other type of college, with reports showing Walden spends only 30% on avg, meaning the other 70% goes toward marketing and shareholder profit. A quality program meant to prepare people to be medical providers and take care of patients absolutely cannot do so spending approx $3,000 per student on instruction, accepting everyone who applies regardless of actual cognitive ability, having absolutely no barriers to entry, and overseeing a medium sized city's worth of student population at any given time. These programs are businesses meant to make money by selling the dream of becoming an NP to those who either didn't bother to research the school or couldn't have been admitted anywhere else.

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