Too much testosterone at work- frisky doctors

SmilingBluEyes · Dec 19, 2003

Originally posted by dneill01
This is not anything uncommon and is not acceptable but I do agree with the post regarding behavior or your looks. I have been around too long (13 years as a male nurse) and know that generally this behavior does not continue if it is obviously not appreciated. Laughing it off does not discourage it.
And no a miniskirt does not deem a rape but women must also take some responsibility. Dress like a loose one you usually will be treated like one, dress like a bum and again you will be treated like one, dress like a professional and you will generally be treated like one. This holds true in all aspects both men and women.
I am sick of hearing liberal women screaming they can do whatever they want and take no responsibility for what their effect may be on others. I also agree the double standard is extreme in this female dominated society. The doctors in question are dead wrong no doubt about but I ask that all take time to introspect. [/quote
why do people keep bringing up situations that having nothing at all to do with this original post? Why all the defensive posts, especially from men? What here did she say that made you so upset? Maybe you have feelings/attitudes to check hum? NO ONE said all men are guilty or are perverts!
some of you don't get this do you? APPLES AND ORANGES folks.
THIS POSTER DID NOTHING to warrant this unwanted treatment. We don't wear miniskirts to work as nurses, why even bring that up???
...she SAID SHE BEHAVES PROFESSIONALLY, not flirtatiously. Gosh, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE if we could have lent her support and advice--- specific to her situation ! this does not sound like a NOW-crazy, out-for-blood woman here. Just someone who wants to be comfortable at work. Not a hell of a lot to ask???
TO the OP, you got some good advice here among the vents. Take it and I wish you the best. You are NOT to blame, no matter what anyone tells you, especially IF you make it clear you are uncomfortable with this treatment. You have the right to be treated with respect and dignity, as you define it. Good luck.

iliel · Dec 19, 2003

why do people keep bringing up situations that having nothing at all to do with this original post? Why all the defensive posts, especially from men? What here did she say that made you so upset? Maybe you have feelings/attitudes to check hum? NO ONE said all men are guilty or are perverts!

some of you don't get this do you? APPLES AND ORANGES folks.

THIS POSTER DID NOTHING to warrant this unwanted treatment. We don't wear miniskirts to work as nurses, why even bring that up???

...she SAID SHE BEHAVES PROFESSIONALLY, not flirtatiously. Gosh, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE if we could have lent her support and advice--- specific to her situation ! this does not sound like a NOW-crazy, out-for-blood woman here. Just someone who wants to be comfortable at work. Not a hell of a lot to ask???

TO the OP, you got some good advice here among the vents. Take it and I wish you the best. You are NOT to blame, no matter what anyone tells you, especially IF you make it clear you are uncomfortable with this treatment. You have the right to be treated with respect and dignity, as you define it. Good luck. [/b]

ITA!!!!

mattsmom81 · Dec 19, 2003

Originally posted by TennNurse
Mattsmom, you do make a point with which it is impossible to argue. The fact is, there are some women out there who make the rest of us look bad. I've been reading this board for two years and I've never known you to post an opinion that wasn't thoughtful and professional. You and I both know that, as you so aptly put it, the broom closet myth is not one. As reasonable, intelligent women, we also know the difference between an admiring compliment to be accepted graciously and a grossly inept come-on. I'm a 30-year-old Southerner and I find it downright degrading when women around me shamelessly simper for the big handsome doctor. Ugh!

I think what so many here have responded to with such instinctive rebellion was skybird's suggestion that the OP had invited the overtures just by her nature of being friendly and at ease with her co-workers. All of us here know that our jobs are made both bearable and more enjoyable by the comraderie we establish with those around us, and for anyone to suggest that unwanted harassment was invited by such an innocent and normal human desire is horribly insulting. It's evidence that we still have a ways to go that we as women must still weigh and censor our every word and gesture for fear that we'll be blamed for "asking for it".

Here's hoping that, as far as we've come, we go still further.

Thank you for your kind post TennNurse! In no way did I ever intend to convey that the OP's situation was her fault....and I apologize if I made her feel badly. Offense was never my intent and I apologize to the BB. My intent was an honest discussion of other posters' comments (Yes, perhaps a bit off topic).

I have brought my son up to respect women, and that 'no means no'. Sometimes he comes to me with questions I have difficulty answering, because the young women he is working with and seeing DO seem to be playing games with him. It is strange for a mother to find herself listening to her son's side of things and to be in the role of guidance counselor for a guy...LOL! What is leveling for me is to see women through his eyes....and admit that not all women play fair. I wonder if this is what our guy posters are trying to point out too...unintentionally offending some here, as I have?

A joyous Holiday Season to all here both male and female!!

LisaRN2B · Dec 19, 2003

Originally posted by mattsmom81
Thank you for your kind post TennNurse! In no way did I ever intend to convey that the OP's situation was her fault....and I apologize if I made her feel badly. Offense was never my intent and I apologize to the BB. My intent was an honest discussion of other posters' comments (Yes, perhaps a bit off topic).

I have brought my son up to respect women, and that 'no means no'. Sometimes he comes to me with questions I have difficulty answering, because the young women he is working with and seeing DO seem to be playing games with him. It is strange for a mother to find herself listening to her son's side of things and to be in the role of guidance counselor for a guy...LOL! What is leveling for me is to see women through his eyes....and admit that not all women play fair. I wonder if this is what our guy posters are trying to point out too...unintentionally offending some here, as I have?

A joyous Holiday Season to all here both male and female!!

Very well said, mattmom81. I think that these are topics we should cover in a separate thread, and at risk of hijacking this thread (sorry) I would like to say that I DO have opinions about what some younger ladies find appropriate attire wise, actions wise etc. (This has NOTHING to do with the OP!!!)

I would like to give those who "seemed" as if they were not very supportive of the OP, or even accusatory of the OP, the benefit of the doubt and just chalk it up to some bad experiences they may have had personally.

SmilingBluEyes · Dec 19, 2003

Originally posted by mattsmom81
Thank you for your kind post TennNurse! In no way did I ever intend to convey that the OP's situation was her fault....and I apologize if I made her feel badly. Offense was never my intent and I apologize to the BB. My intent was an honest discussion of other posters' comments (Yes, perhaps a bit off topic).

I have brought my son up to respect women, and that 'no means no'. Sometimes he comes to me with questions I have difficulty answering, because the young women he is working with and seeing DO seem to be playing games with him. It is strange for a mother to find herself listening to her son's side of things and to be in the role of guidance counselor for a guy...LOL! What is leveling for me is to see women through his eyes....and admit that not all women play fair. I wonder if this is what our guy posters are trying to point out too...unintentionally offending some here, as I have?

A joyous Holiday Season to all here both male and female!!

you seem sensible and obviously bring up your son better than others do. I appreciate that. NO denying women play games w/men's heads...and vice versa.

I just had a problem w/people bringing that up in this particular thread. This person was looking for advice/help with a distressing situation, no more. I did not find the comments defending men's behavior toward women being somewhat mitigated by how women dress or the comments about women playing w/men's minds helpful to this particular poster. I thought we could help her, not justify bad behavior on anyone's parts or make her examine herself further. I never meant to upset you, mattsmom. I have a lot of respect for you.

Happy holidays all.

Streamlined · Jan 9, 2004

I'm all for putting an end to harrassment, don't think I condone it in any way, but bear in mind that most doctors are society's social imbeciles. Here I risk making a blanket stereotype and I should know better, but think about it. They spend their youth maintaining their grade point average, study like crazy in college and med school, get married too young, probably to another doctor, and because the world is in collusion and we treat them like they're God's gift, they never learn simple manners and codes of behavior. There is a thin line between these guys just being doofuses-sp-and being harrassers. They're probably just like us, they want recognition of some kind only they don't know how to get it respectfully. How about the old fart docs who come up behind you and give you a neck rub? Is that harrassment or is that just some old guy who wants to connect? How about the ones who call you "the girls" or "honey"? To this ortho doc who wants a sponge bath so bad, I'd tell him I'm sorry he doesn't get enough attention at home, but you don't even have time to give your patients sponge baths so his chances are very slim.

barefootlady, ADN, RN · Jan 9, 2004

Agree with post that states some doctors are social imbeciles. Dartmouth has a class that the fellowship students must take.

It discussed proper social behavior, ethics, sexual harrassment and manners for these doctors. Now these guys are not teenagers, or even in their early 20's, some of these guy are mid to late 30's. Some doctors have been so busy chasing the M.D. they are socially ignorant. It does not excure the behavior of many doctors, and they do need a basic lesson in "no is no", but I have seen it happen many times. When the nurse in question sets limits, they are surprised and often sorry for the behavior. Real or not, they have been educated, harrassment means dollars.

I believe the OP was a victim.. She did not deserve this type of treatment. I am sure she will be very dilligant in verbally setting limits if there are future events.

Tilleycs · Jan 12, 2004

As a man, in some ways, I'm shocked that these doctors/interns are doing or saying anything close to this - especially with the uproar over sexual harrassment over the past few years, the muti-million dollar lawsuits, and the careers and marriages that have been ruined. I am hesitant to even so much as compliment the women I work with - and I'm talking a "You like nice today" compliment, not a "Hey baby, nice , whatchoo doin' after work?" comment in front of "the boys".

Sexual harrassment is SO dangerous, because it's all "in the eye of the beholder." All it takes is one bitter person with a big axe to grind or who's looking to file a lawsuit to take something well-intended and blow it out of proportion. Even if it's proven false, if it gets out, it can damage your reputation. So, it's safer to not even risk it.

I smile and say hello to people at work, and make small talk in the hallways and the breakroom, but that's about it. Even if a smile is misinterpreted and used as ammunition against me, everyone can attest that I smile and say hello to EVERYONE.

We had a "sexual harrassment avoidance training" class at work, and everyone made jokes about it afterward ("I like your sweater, and I mean that in the most sterile, non-harrassing way possible..."), but the tension is still there sometimes. Like I said, all it takes is one person who is having an emotional day.

If any ladies ever wonder why they never get complimented at work, this could be the reason. I'd like to compliment people, I know compliments are encouraging to hear...but there's not a woman out there who's worth risking MY career over.

iliel · Jan 12, 2004

Originally posted by Tilleycs
As a man, in some ways, I'm shocked that these doctors/interns are doing or saying anything close to this - especially with the uproar over sexual harrassment over the past few years, the muti-million dollar lawsuits, and the careers and marriages that have been ruined. I am hesitant to even so much as compliment the women I work with - and I'm talking a "You like nice today" compliment, not a "Hey baby, nice , whatchoo doin' after work?" comment in front of "the boys".

Sexual harrassment is SO dangerous, because it's all "in the eye of the beholder." All it takes is one bitter person with a big axe to grind or who's looking to file a lawsuit to take something well-intended and blow it out of proportion. Even if it's proven false, if it gets out, it can damage your reputation. So, it's safer to not even risk it.

I smile and say hello to people at work, and make small talk in the hallways and the breakroom, but that's about it. Even if a smile is misinterpreted and used as ammunition against me, everyone can attest that I smile and say hello to EVERYONE.

We had a "sexual harrassment avoidance training" class at work, and everyone made jokes about it afterward ("I like your sweater, and I mean that in the most sterile, non-harrassing way possible..."), but the tension is still there sometimes. Like I said, all it takes is one person who is having an emotional day.

If any ladies ever wonder why they never get complimented at work, this could be the reason. I'd like to compliment people, I know compliments are encouraging to hear...but there's not a woman out there who's worth risking MY career over.

I get what your saying......but really, I don't need anyone at work to compliment me on the way I look, act, etc. On the job I'm doing that's fine, but nothing about me persoanlly.

One bad apple ruins the whole bunch!

colleen10 · Jan 12, 2004

There are men, and women, like this in all walks of life.

I usually give a person the benefit of the doubt the first time.

ie. if they say something that makes me slightly uncomfortable I don't make a big deal out of it, I just tell them that I thought their comment was inappropriate and made me uncomfortable. Not everyone has the same type of sense of humor or was raised properly so I make that statement in an effort to warn them that they can't play those kinds of games and jokes around me. If they do it again, then I take it to a superior.

There is also the creepiness factor, and the women on the board know exactly what I am talking about. You can often tell how serious the person is about the comment by how creepy and uncomfortable the person and remark make you, women's intuition.

However, there have been times when what a person did was absolutely without a doubt inappropriate and I didn't even waste time with them, took it straight to management. For example, a male co-worker sent out an email with an attached picture of 4 naked women lined up in a row with their legs spread. He sent this to a number of male co-workers and some men clients of ours. In my book, that was stupid move and did not require telling this person how wrong it was. It shouldn't have happened at all.

hogan4736, BSN, RN · Jan 13, 2004

all things aside,

asking someone out on a date IS NOT sexual harrassment...just hope no one thinks that it is...

now if you KNOW that the person is married, or if you are married, then that just makes you an assss

sean

LisaRN2B · Jan 13, 2004

Originally posted by hogan4736
all things aside,

asking someone out on a date IS NOT sexual harrassment...just hope no one thinks that it is...

sean

In the workplace, it could be. And dependent upon the marital status of both individuals it could be as well. (Not saying *you* would do this, just generally speaking). I don't know how it is in hospitals, but many corporations have non-fraternization policies, too.

But, yeah, if your not at work and in a socially appropriate setting for such a request, then I wouldn't consider that sexual harrassment.