To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate, That Is The Question

seraphimid · Oct 30, 2019

12 hours ago, nursej22 said:
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/653.short
"Consistent with critical differences between natural infection and immunization, well-controlled epidemiologic studies do not support the hypothesis that vaccines cause autoimmunity."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23902317/?i=6&from=/25427994/related

CONCLUSION: We documented here the evidence of the potential of the HPV vaccine to trigger a life-disabling autoimmune condition. The increasing number of similar reports of post HPV vaccine-linked autoimmunity and the uncertainty of long-term clinical benefits of HPV vaccination are a matter of public health that warrants further rigorous inquiry.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27406735/?i=5&from=/26125978/related

As a consequence, an epidemiological assessment of the vaccine adverse event reporting system database was undertaken for adverse event reports associated with vaccines administered from 2006 to 2014 to 6-39 year-old recipients with a listed US residence and a specified female gender. Cases with the serious autoimmune adverse event (SAAE) outcomes of gastroenteritis (odds ratio (OR) 4.627, 95 % confidence interval (CI) 1.892-12.389), rheumatoid arthritis (OR 5.629, 95 % CI 2.809-12.039), thrombocytopenia (OR 2.178, 95 % CI 1.222-3.885), systemic lupus erythematosus (OR 7.626, 95 % CI 3.385-19.366), vasculitis (OR 3.420, 95 % CI 1.211-10.408), alopecia (OR 8.894, 95 % CI 6.255-12.914), CNS demyelinating conditions (OR 1.585, 95 % CI 1.129-2.213), ovarian damage (OR 14.961, 95 % CI 6.728-39.199), or irritable bowel syndrome (OR 10.021, 95 % CI 3.725-33.749) were significantly more likely than controls to have received HPV4 vaccine (median onset of initial symptoms ranged from 3 to 37 days post-HPV4 vaccination).

https://www.cdc.gov/hpv/parents/vaccine.html

Two doses of the HPV vaccine are recommended for all boys and girls at ages 11-12; the vaccine can be given as early as age 9. If you wait until they’re older, they may need three doses instead of two.

Children who start the vaccine series on or after their 15th birthday need three shots given over 6 months. If your teen hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet, talk to his/her doctor about getting it as soon as possible.

nursej22, MSN, RN · Oct 30, 2019

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30792242

CONCLUSIONS:

From 2008-2014, the proportion of HPV16/18-positive CIN2+ declined, with the greatest declines in vaccinated women; declines in unvaccinated women suggest herd protection.

seraphimid · Oct 30, 2019

9 minutes ago, nursej22 said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30792242
CONCLUSIONS:
From 2008-2014, the proportion of HPV16/18-positive CIN2+ declined, with the greatest declines in vaccinated women; declines in unvaccinated women suggest herd protection.

Immunity has been established. Autoimmunity has been established. I suppose what you’ve been avoiding stating is that immunity is paramount, regardless of the present risk for autoimmunity involved.

“Declines in unvaccinated women suggest herd protection,” or increased vigilance around HPV transmission related to the public health education available on the topic compared to pre-2008.

LiveFit99 · Oct 30, 2019

On 10/29/2019 at 10:47 PM, nursej22 said:
That's why it is reported to be 98% effective in producing immunity. Few things in health care are 100%. So if 300,000,000 million people were immunized for measles, you would expect 60,000 people to not be immune. So yes, we agree, plenty of people are not immune.

Which strengthens the need for herd immunity.

SandIsMyGlitterRN, BSN, RN · Oct 30, 2019

On 10/18/2019 at 3:35 PM, CommunityRNBSN said:
I gave about 10 flu shots yesterday and I think 100% of the patients said to me "I always get sick after I get the flu shot." When I asked for details, most didn't give any other than "feeling bad."
I did have ONE patient this week whose story was "I never did get the flu shot, until a few years ago when I caught the flu and it was awful. Now I get the shot every year because I don't want that to happen again!" I wanted to give him a gold star.

When I hear these statements, I cringe. I explain that the feeling you are having is the vaccine working in their system. Your body is responding to what helps to keep you protected.

seraphimid · Oct 30, 2019

On 10/30/2019 at 11:46 AM, nursej22 said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30792242
CONCLUSIONS:
From 2008-2014, the proportion of HPV16/18-positive CIN2+ declined, with the greatest declines in vaccinated women; declines in unvaccinated women suggest herd protection.

2018:
https://ebm.bmj.com/content/23/5/165.long
Conclusion

Part of the Cochrane Collaboration’s motto is ‘Trusted evidence’. We do not find the Cochrane HPV vaccine review to be ‘Trusted evidence’, as it was influenced by reporting bias and biased trial designs. We believe that the Cochrane review does not meet the standards for Cochrane reviews or the needs of the citizens or healthcare providers that consult Cochrane reviews to make ‘Informed decisions’, which also is part of Cochrane’s motto. We recommend that authors of Cochrane reviews make every effort to identify all trials and their limitations and conduct reviews accordingly.

seraphimid · Oct 30, 2019

4 hours ago, nursej22 said:
You are correct. A person who has become infected with measles is contagious for as many as 4 days before the onset of rash. That is why public health strives to identify measles cases early so that susceptible persons can be protected. And also why they encourage all who can be, get immunized, thus allowing herd immunity to protect newborns, immunocompromised, and those rare people who do not develop immunity.

Except when that isn’t the case:

Conclusions

Waning levels of measles antibodies with increasing time post-vaccination suggests that measles susceptibility is potentially increasing in Korea. This trend may be related to limitations of vaccine-induced immunity in the absence of natural boosting by the wild virus, compared to naturally acquired immunity triggered by measles infection. This study provides an important view into the current measles herd immunity in Korea.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X17308551

Secondary measles-vaccine failures are more common than was more previously thought, particularly among individuals vaccinated in early life, long ago, and among re-vaccinees. Waning immunity even among individuals vaccinated after 15 months of age, without the boosting effect of natural infections should be considered a relevant possibility in future planning of vaccination against measles.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10813152/

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Oct 31, 2019

On 10/23/2019 at 7:18 AM, LibraSunCNM said:
The CDC is not my "teacher." I believe what they say because they are a scientific organization dedicated to rigorous research to ensure public health. I'm happy to discuss anything, but I'm also happy to point out when others are wrong and spreading lies.
What is your rationale for your statement that a child developing "innate" immunity somehow protects them better than a vaccine and is therefore preferable? I hear this a lot and I have no idea where it came from. Vaccines protect us from what our innate immune system cannot.
If you're putting "more serious" in quotes to discuss polio and MMR, then this conversation is essentially over, because you've clearly no idea the devastating effects these diseases can have. BECAUSE, we hardly ever see them and have forgotten how devastating they are. BECAUSE OF VACCINES!!!

Those of us who are older had no MMR or chickenpox vax, no flu vax, pneumonia vax, shingles vax. We had the UCHD (usual childhood diseases of measles, Rubella, chicken pox, mumps, Fifth Disease) and developed natural immunity. There were none of these vax back then. The pediatricians back then said it was healthy for the child's immune system to fight off these illnesses. We were vaccinated against smallpox, tetorifice, pertussis, and diphtheria. And polio when that vax came out.

That said, we likely had relatively mild strains here in the US. And we had decent nutrition, clean living conditions, good care from parents, the folkways of our grandparents and community leaders, school nurses who looked out for us, and access to medical care. Perhaps the Philippine measles deaths mentioned earlier were due to lack of the foregoing and/or to a more virulent strain.

Please don't be angry and please don't blindly trust a government body. The CDC are just people. Fallible, subject to desire for fame and fortune, etc., just like anyone else. I guess there are some people for whom life isn't so filled with temptation, but we just can't assume that everyone is good at heart.

**LibraSunCNM, BSN, MSN, CNM** · Oct 31, 2019

6 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:
Those of us who are older had no MMR or chickenpox vax, no flu vax, pneumonia vax, shingles vax. We had the UCHD (usual childhood diseases of measles, Rubella, chicken pox, mumps, Fifth Disease) and developed natural immunity. There were none of these vax back then. The pediatricians back then said it was healthy for the child's immune system to fight off these illnesses. We were vaccinated against smallpox, tetorifice, pertussis, and diphtheria. And polio when that vax came out.
That said, we likely had relatively mild strains here in the US. And we had decent nutrition, clean living conditions, good care from parents, the folkways of our grandparents and community leaders, school nurses who looked out for us, and access to medical care. Perhaps the Philippine measles deaths mentioned earlier were due to lack of the foregoing and/or to a more virulent strain.
Please don't be angry and please don't blindly trust a government body. The CDC are just people. Fallible, subject to desire for fame and fortune, etc., just like anyone else. I guess there are some people for whom life isn't so filled with temptation, but we just can't assume that everyone is good at heart.

I'm glad you survived the usual childhood illnesses. Those kids who didn't unfortunately are not around to comment about their experiences. I'm not sure why you think I'm angry or why you would care if I am. I'm passionate about vaccines because I think the benefits far outweigh the risks. Yes, the CDC are just people, but they aren't average morons off the street. They are trained scientists, and while I understand science constantly evolves and scientists make mistakes, thus far I have seen no evidence to convince me they are fallible about the overall safety of vaccines.

seraphimid · Oct 31, 2019

31 minutes ago, LibraSunCNM said:
I'm glad you survived the usual childhood illnesses. Those kids who didn't unfortunately are not around to comment about their experiences. I'm not sure why you think I'm angry or why you would care if I am. I'm passionate about vaccines because I think the benefits far outweigh the risks. Yes, the CDC are just people, but they aren't average morons off the street. They are trained scientists, and while I understand science constantly evolves and scientists make mistakes, thus far I have seen no evidence to convince me they are fallible about the overall safety of vaccines.

I wonder how many of your patients are “average morons off the street” and how exactly you treat them.

nursej22, MSN, RN · Oct 31, 2019

7 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:
Those of us who are older had no MMR or chickenpox vax, no flu vax, pneumonia vax, shingles vax. We had the UCHD (usual childhood diseases of measles, Rubella, chicken pox, mumps, Fifth Disease) and developed natural immunity. There were none of these vax back then. The pediatricians back then said it was healthy for the child's immune system to fight off these illnesses. We were vaccinated against smallpox, tetorifice, pertussis, and diphtheria. And polio when that vax came out.
That said, we likely had relatively mild strains here in the US. And we had decent nutrition, clean living conditions, good care from parents, the folkways of our grandparents and community leaders, school nurses who looked out for us, and access to medical care. Perhaps the Philippine measles deaths mentioned earlier were due to lack of the foregoing and/or to a more virulent strain.
Please don't be angry and please don't blindly trust a government body. The CDC are just people. Fallible, subject to desire for fame and fortune, etc., just like anyone else. I guess there are some people for whom life isn't so filled with temptation, but we just can't assume that everyone is good at heart.

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/history.html

"In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles."

Children with measles experience high fevers, diarrhea, dehydration and pneumonia. Children in the Philippines died because of lack of resources to treat dehydration and airway support (ventilators).

I have had a bout of shingles, and it came very near my eye, and I never want to experience that again. I have cared for people with disseminated shingles and zoster pneumonia, and I support a method to prevent those conditions.

Snatchedwig, BSN, CNA, LPN, RN · Oct 31, 2019

On 10/31/2019 at 9:27 AM, seraphimid said:
I wonder how many of your patients are “average morons off the street” and how exactly you treat them.

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