To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate, That Is The Question

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Vaccinate or Die!!!

What fears and/or objections have you, personally, or as Nurses caring for your patients, encountered when it comes to vaccinations?

1 hour ago, seraphimid said:

If you want to be humored, go to a comedy show. But to make a joke of the concerns of actual people, parents, and families is more of a tragedy if you ask me.

ITP, GBS, and transverse myelitis are just three confirmed autoimmune conditions with vaccination as a known etiology. I’ve shared several studies of autoimmune like syndromes after other vaccinations. Many autoimmune conditions are only just developing as a specific syndrome or condition and have remained undiagnosed and unrecognized for decades.

The increasing knowledge on the potential involvement of inflammatory processes in mental disorders and the associations found between autoimmunity and psychotic disorders can help the expanding field of immuno-psychiatry and have impact on the outcome of patients. In the last couple of years, researchers have focused on the role of infections, autoantibodies and other immune components that plays a major role in autoimmune diseases. Potentially this might also be the case for mental disorders. Risk factors for both autoimmune diseases and schizophrenia includes an interaction between environmental factors, such as infections and stress, with genetic factors involving the HLA region. Autoimmune reactions with activation of immune components and the production of NSAbs can induce a broad spectrum of psychiatric symptoms, hereunder psychosis. The potential autoimmune-mediated psychosis group might only be a small part of a broader immune-related psychosis group, and an even smaller fraction of the overall psychosis group. However, identification of this subgroup might allow for precision medicine strategies where immune-based treatment could possibly improve the psychotic symptoms. A quick discovery and treatment of autoimmune encephalitis markedly reduces the neuropsychiatric sequelae, and intensive immunotherapy in lupus patients with psychosis massively benefits psychiatric symptoms (42, 121).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6435494/

as the above study illustrates, there is an overlap between some psychotic symptoms and biological autoimmune events. The cross sections of neurology, immunology, and psychiatry are quite new and there is lots of research to be done.

what specific studies would you consider to be the strongest case for infant immunity and T-cell production being adequate to deal with epitope crossreactivity and antiDNA antigens?

I think you took my post to be argumentative or sarcastic when it was meant to be earnest. A lot of this thread has been so argumentative and meandering that it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. You seemed impassioned enough that I hoped you wouldn't mind citing (or re-citing) the studies that led you to your conclusions, for the sake of clarity. Of course I can do my own research, but I'd be less likely to miss part of the argument if you'd kindly lay out your sources.

Fwiw, I'm familiar with the link between GBS and vaccinations. Less so with other autoimmune complications. It would seem to me that data on the actual incidence of vaccination-related complications would be pretty important to perform a reasonable risk-benefit analysis of various vaccinations and vaccination schedules.

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32 minutes ago, LibraSunCNM said:

You seem to be conflating a few things I've said and putting words in my mouth.

1.) at no time have I stated that science cannot be studied by anyone. What I've stated is that I trust the CDC, despite your and other posters' assertions that they cannot be trusted, because they are trained scientists and publish peer reviewed, reliable research.

2.) at no time have I stated that to be able to disseminate research, do you need a particular degree. You're right---most nursing programs involve a course in both research and statistics, which is why I personally feel comfortable reading articles with a critical eye. However, unlike me, a trained healthcare professional, the average layperson does not have this background, nor do they have the scientific background to actually perform the research, like the scientists at the CDC.

3.) at no time have I stated that the matter is "settled." You're right, science is ever-evolving, which is what makes it so awesome. What I've stated is that currently, based on the research we have right at this moment, I personally am convinced that the benefits to vaccines far outweigh the risks, and are the most important contributor to the good of public health in the last century. Maybe someday my opinion will change based on new research, but right now I'm confident in my beliefs. When others disagree, I find it interesting to discuss where they're coming from to try to understand their point of view.

4.) at no time have I stated that I think people do *not* have the right to question vaccines or review the literature and make decisions for themselves. I completely agree with the concept of informed consent and the right to refusal. That doesn't mean that I won't continue to try to speak out in support of vaccines.

1) studies are not infallible, even ones held to the highest of standards and considered peer reviewed or reliable research.
https://www.quotidianosanita.it/allegati/allegato9278745.pdf

this link from 2018 on HPV research is especially concerning considering the HPV vaccine is now being given to 9 year olds.

2) I don’t want to harp on your previous comment but you seemed to be insinuating that people needed a certain level of intelligence and expertise to read a study or make an informed decision regarding vaccination schedules. People who hold degrees in psychology, sociology, anthropology, economics, etc. are required to take statistics. They are not health care professionals. Is the standard for interpreting a study having taken a college level statistics course? Interestingly enough, if we are to look at this from a sociocultural perspective, some of the most vehement opposition to CDC vaccine scheduling are the overeducated, socioeconomically privileged Silicon Valley tech parents. Delayed vaccination is popular among pediatric practices in places like Beverly Hills, Westchester county or the Upper East Side and goes with Montessori schools and organic clothing. These parents aren’t fast food industry workers.

3 + 4) glad we found common ground

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Specializes in OB.
42 minutes ago, seraphimid said:

1) studies are not infallible, even ones held to the highest of standards and considered peer reviewed or reliable research.
https://www.quotidianosanita.it/allegati/allegato9278745.pdf

this link from 2018 on HPV research is especially concerning considering the HPV vaccine is now being given to 9 year olds.

2) I don’t want to harp on your previous comment but you seemed to be insinuating that people needed a certain level of intelligence and expertise to read a study or make an informed decision regarding vaccination schedules. People who hold degrees in psychology, sociology, anthropology, economics, etc. are required to take statistics. They are not health care professionals. Is the standard for interpreting a study having taken a college level statistics course? Interestingly enough, if we are to look at this from a sociocultural perspective, some of the most vehement opposition to CDC vaccine scheduling are the overeducated, socioeconomically privileged Silicon Valley tech parents. Delayed vaccination is popular among pediatric practices in places like Beverly Hills, Westchester county or the Upper East Side and goes with Montessori schools and organic clothing. These parents aren’t fast food industry workers.

3 + 4) glad we found common ground

1.) The Cochrane Library immediately issued an urgent review of the meta analysis in question based on the article you posted. Of note, the article doesn't really bring up any dire red flags in terms of side effects or reactions to the vaccine that are that unusual, but rather they imply that because certain parts of certain studies weren't included in the analysis but should have been, who knows what could have been left out. I don't necessarily agree, but I look forward to the reinvestigation of the study and if it changes my tune, I'm happy to admit it. I currently still believe Gardasil is an incredibly important vaccine.

2.) Actually I do think college-level courses in research and statistics are necessary to be able to understand scientific studies. You can read the bullet points or conclusion, but otherwise the statistical methods used would be completely foreign to the reader. I certainly couldn't disseminate studies well before I took those courses in college. However, I never meant to imply that all parents need to take those courses to be able to interpret the studies to be able to make decisions about vaccines. My responses about average laypeople refer to the comments that imply the CDC can't be trusted. My point is that I personally trust them because they are trained scientists---human, fallible, of course, but generally incredibly skilled in what they do or they wouldn't work there.

You're absolutely correct that some of the most ardent anti-vaxxers are educated professionals---I truly have no answer for why that is so, as I've never encountered anti-vaxxers from those circumstances. Here in my neck of the woods, the opposition comes from right-leaning, religiously zealous parents who tend to be highly suspicious of anything to do with the government. They often homeschool their kids, profess the benefits of essential oils as being far superior to Western medicine, only see chiropractors for medical care, etc. I'm not trying to stereotype or be nasty, that's literally almost a picture perfect description of the families I encounter who refuse vaccines. You're right, the sociocultural aspect of vaccine choice is fascinating. I personally think that the large increase in unvaccinated kids in the last decade or so has more to do with the pervasive nature of social media in our lives and the complete ease with which false information can be quickly circulated and appeal to the our emotional side over our rational side, and less to do with parents being more interested in/critical of the rigor of vaccine research.

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Specializes in NICU.

As a survivor of whooping cough (the vaccine ordered but did not get there on time) it is one of the worst illnesses a child under the age of one can get.I have pictures of finally making it to my first birthday looking like death warmed over.My parents have recounted how ill I was and how long it lasted.

Needless to say all my children are vaccinated.

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Being a proponent of vaccinations, I pick up flu vaccine clinics every year. I have to explain to patients that GBS is caused by many bacterial infections, viruses and influenza itself! A patient recently told me his friend picked up camplylobacter from a shop injury and contracted GBS.

I also have to explain that feeling malaise after the vaccination is your body mounting an immune response. This is supposed to happen!

There is evidence that obesity plays a role in autoimmune disease, but our patients would rather not discuss that. Let's blame vaccines instead.

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Specializes in IMCU.

Just get vaccinated unless you have a real medical contraindication. I’m over debating vaccinations with people. It’s like verbal sparring with someone who has one brain cell stretched between two ears.

I don’t hear doctors having stupid conversations like this. Be the educated nurses you’re supposed to be. Crickey.

Apparently I’m cranky today. Sorry.

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On 11/3/2019 at 3:12 PM, DolceVita said:

Just get vaccinated unless you have a real medical contraindication. I’m over debating vaccinations with people. It’s like verbal sparring with someone who has one brain cell stretched between two ears.

I don’t hear doctors having stupid conversations like this. Be the educated nurses you’re supposed to be. Crickey.

Apparently I’m cranky today. Sorry.

There are many pediatricians that will adhere to a delayed vaccine schedule if the family requests. Nurses I work with have told me they chose delayed schedules for their children based on different conditions. Maybe it’s a geographical thing.

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Specializes in IMCU.
1 hour ago, seraphimid said:

There are many pediatricians that will adhere to a delayed vaccine schedule if the family requests. Nurses I work with have told me they chose delayed schedules for their children based on different conditions. Maybe it’s a geographical thing.

Not remotely what I meant.

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7 minutes ago, DolceVita said:

Not remotely what I meant.

You wrote just get vaccinated. I didn’t intend on misinterpreting what you meant.

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On 11/3/2019 at 3:12 PM, DolceVita said:

Just get vaccinated unless you have a real medical contraindication. I’m over debating vaccinations with people. It’s like verbal sparring with someone who has one brain cell stretched between two ears.

I don’t hear doctors having stupid conversations like this. Be the educated nurses you’re supposed to be. Crickey.

Apparently I’m cranky today. Sorry.

They most certainly do. Just one of many such doctors was just on Bill Maher a couple days ago having his own version of a *** fest with Bill.

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Yes, MDs are constantly debating with their patients about vaccines.

Science shows that our bodies can handle way more antigens than we are currently receiving. The vaccines given in the 1970's contained more antigens than are in today's vaccines.

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Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
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Honestly, its not as simple as so many people make it seem.

Actually it is. Without vaccinations children and adults face very real possibility of disability or death from easily preventable diseases

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For example, their scheduling. You still get herd immunity if a child gets it at age 4, rather than 8 months. Are you giving the infant a chance to develop ANY innate immunity? Yet, we are pushing Hep B vaccines on infants? Funny stuff.

Where I live, we are having one of the worst outbreaks of measles we have ever seen and we are in serious danger of loosing herd immunity due to the declining rates of vaccinations, or delayed vaccinations.

To give you an idea of why that is such a problem, take the example of "Rose" (not her real name). As a baby she had billary atresia and required a liver transplant. Rose is now a vibrant 12 year old who looking at her no one would ever guess she had been so sick as a baby. Due to her age, Rose is at very real risk of exposure to measles however because she is on immunosupressants for life, she cant be vaccinated.

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Flu vaccine, dont even get me started. Complete money-grab.

How do you work that out? We get our flu vaccination as work, doesnt cost us a thing.

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Even for the "more serious ones" like polio and MMR, there are arguments to be made.

What argument could possibly counter the fact that polio is all but eradicated thanks to regular vaccinations against it?

(I'm not being snarky I would seriously like to know)

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