Stealing drugs!! what's your opinion?????

Nebby Nurse · Nov 25, 2003

A "heavy hand with the pain medicine" is not necessarily a sign of a nurse who is diverting. It is common to assume so in certain facilities especially after a nurse has been caught diverting weeks, months even years previously. In fact some nurses remain forever traumatized following an incident involving a coworker that they refuse to give out prn narcs period. It breaks your heart to take keys on an assignment and find patients or residents writhing in pain because a nurse was too paranoid to sign out a narc. In these cases the narcs need to be reordered as a straight order.

Good luck to you nurses in recovery and thanks for sharing your stories.

BarbPick · Nov 25, 2003

My post was not about recovery. It was about detection. At this moment, Rush Limbauh is not exactly my hero because he is in recovery, I think of the black market garbage he went through to be on 40 oxycontin a day. Nurses on the other hand, it can be an on the job hazzard.

I spent 22 years in Oncology. I have had patients on 100 mg of morphine / hour on a home pca pump.

Nurses who divert do have patterns, and each one is unique, period.

One of the ways they are detected is someone does a time study on them. Doccument their every move, and write it down. You would be amazed what someone actually does every minute of their day.

Florida has the IPN, the intervention project for Nurses. The IPN is called and if they enter the program, there is no action taken on their license.

I am there for a nurse who is in recovery and willing to listen any time. This thread started about someone stealing narcotics.

Lemonhead · Nov 26, 2003

Knowing what I know now, I think I might be able to pick up on a "diverter", but I also know how smooth I was. I have some suspicions now regarding nurses that I used to work with---just little quirkie things--like the leftover meds that I had been eyeballing, disappearing--isn't that crazy---a diverter, diverting MY drugs..lol...okay, maybe not very funny, but my sense of humor has taken on a whole new dimension through all of this. Otherwise, prior to going through it myself, I had only worked with one person that diverted and was caught and her behavior was totally bizarre, but we just passed it of to some mental issues--when we found out how much she was truly diverting, we were shocked that she even survived, so yes, everyone has their "technique", some alot harder to identify than others.

SmilingBluEyes · Nov 26, 2003

IF people are DOING THEIR jobs; that is, wasting according to guidelines and policies, it's a lot harder to lose "wastes" to diverters. NO WAY would I "waste" anything without a WITNESS WATCHING ME DO IT HERSELF AND COSIGNING IT...and NO way will I sign for wastage I DID NOT SEE DONE MYSELF.

This is apparently a HUGE problem out there..I am astounded how sloppy practices are out there. I never realized how bad it is in other places. Glad it's not like that so much where I work (at least on night shift). There is no excuse, even being "busy"....no excuse. THIS is where many problems start. We all need to be responsible for our own practices and watch out for each other.

LilgirlRN, ADN, RN · Nov 26, 2003

http://opioids.com/index.html

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Nov 26, 2003

I agree that addicts deserve our pity and sympathy, but I for one would not like to work with a nurse who is stealing meds (or anything else for that matter!).

The fact that you can commit a felony (stealing CDS) and retain your license and remain working at the same hospital is a sad reflection on the shortage. And it paints us all with the same brush.

I'm for keeping the ranks clean. We take care of vulnerable people, and trust is a serious issue in nursing. If we cannot be trusted, we don't need to be nurses.

And I'm not talking about the occasional tylenol. (On the other hand, I've seen nursing staff go through floor stock--sodas, food, crackers, peanut butter, chocolate milk, etc.--and even order what they wanted even though this was for the patients, and then b---h when a CNA gave a can of soda to a family member who was crying because the patient was dying. And this was on an ICU where the patients were all vented and therefore NPO..... But that would be another thread, wouldn't it?)

Lemonhead · Nov 26, 2003

I don't imagine anyone "wants" to work with a nurse that's actively diverting. Are you saying that you don't want to work with a nurse that has ever diverted, regardless of total rehabilitation?

To be quite frank, the "felony" charges can be towards anyone that steals ANYTHING from an institution...theft is theft, regardless. Not to downplay my actions, but let me explain this--I was criminally charged with drug theft, not "using". Now, the drug theft was because I had 2 patients that I did not account for partial wastages...that's it--that's the evidence. Now, if I had truly NOT been diverting, those charges would have still stuck, because diverting or not, I could not prove where those wastes went without a cosigner, therefore, it's theft. I hope I'm making it clear--like I said, not at all to downplay my actions, but therre are nurses out there with "felony" records that did NOT divert --and here's another scary fact--a hospital can terminate you for diverting, turn you over to the board, yet if you do not enter in to a diversionary program, your license is active and clear until disciplinary action, which in this state can take up to a year...at least those nurses that enter in to diversionary programs are getting immediate help AND surrendering their licenses immediately. When I was terminated for diversion, I had a job lined up the following day--nobody knew because it takes so long to bring nurses up for discipline (I didn't take the job by the way, entered in to the diversionary program) But, had I not been forthright, admitted to the diversion and requested admission, I would have easily been working for one year, without treatment--not that I'm suggesting anyone "admit" to diversion to anyone other than an attorney, but that's a whole other topic.

Also, nurses with felony records directly related to health care, are placed on a federal list called the National Health Practioner Data Bank. This list is mandatory--courts and boards are federally mandated to report any criminal conviction AND/OR action against a license. Any nurse that is on it cannot work in any institution that receives any type of federal funding--medicare/medicaid--that about wipes out any hospital, doc office, etc...so, it's unlikely that you are working with too many nurses with felony convictions. In addition, a felony record also excludes a nurse from obtaining licensure in other professions--teaching, rad tech, etc. Trust me, the nursing shortage has absolutely nothing to do with convicted felons working--certainly, there are nurses that have "diverted" that work, but I doubt they have felony convictions.

I can only stress to all of you, theft is theft....just please be very careful---a prosecuting attorney can charge you with theft for taking the bread and juice--the laws are extremely vague to provide for prosecution. Yes, stealing Demerol and taking a hospital issued Motrin is a massive difference to you and I, but legally, it's theft.

I would not have wanted to work with "me" either during that horrible time in my career. I have no doubt I was a horrible accident waiting to happen--but, prior to that, I had a career well over 15 years, in which people were glad to work alongside me--I made a mistake--I'm forever branded--but, should all nurses be? Do you think there should be "levels" of punishment, consequences? Or should any nurse that has ever diverted, be permanently banned? What about nurses that are accused of self using because they didn't sign out appropriate wastes? And get felony theft charges that stick? If you think there's a nursing shortage now, wait until that happens--and it already is in many states. If people don't look at each individual circumstance, this could be nothing more than a witch hunt, and alot of great nurses put out of business....

Lemonhead · Nov 26, 2003

Almost forgot...

LilgirlRN, thanks for the article, that's very interesting--I'm going to go over it again and post it on some other sites...

SmilingEyes...

You are absolutey right about signing wastes, etc. Another point that I wanted to add to that, is not only are nurses careless, so are our pharmacists..Let me stress, I'm not throwing blame for my situation at all--but.....it starts with one nurse and trickles down to several people not doing "their job"..how does a pharmacist not notice huge amounts of drugs unaccounted for? Drugs signed out for patients that didn't even have them ordered? Patients charged for multiple narcotic injections 6 days post op? Etc....

And....another scary thought....in this state, when a nurse is busted diverting, it's also reported to the State Pharmacy Board--it is the Pharmacy Board Investigators that actually do the "on site" investigation--now, get this--when an investigator came to the hospital that I had worked at...he "found" one empty bottle of Fentanyl and one empty bottle of another narc (I forget specifically)--in the OR and in a patient room--he documents this...however, that's where it stopped--because he could pin it on me, he did not need to investigate further---BUT--it wasn't mine (honestly! lol) It was not mine, nor was it signed out by me. But, it was much easier to pin it on someone else than pursue a thorough investigation--I was not criminally charged with those because there was no evidence for criminal charges, but---don't ya think it an "investigator" finds empty bottles that cannot be accounted for, he might ought to pursue that? They didn't---and over 4 years later, nothing at this particular institution has changed..nurses still "too" busy to cosign, 1/2 used bottles of Stadol and Nubain laying around, etc....And, I reported these actions to both the Board of Nursing and the Pharmacy Board during my investigation and it was never pursued....what's it going to take?

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Nov 26, 2003

I think if you take "bread and juice," and somebody decides to get picky, that's probably a misdemeanor.

A felony is theft of something a lot bigger and more valuable, or being in possession of a CDS (controlled dangerous substance).

I think the rules about nurses (and other health care providers) with substance abuse charges or convictions are probably based on the same kind of logic that keeps pedophiles from working in day care centers.

I'm sure someone will blast me for that one too! :)

I didn't follow everything that you wrote (though I did get the part about having a job lined up the next day--were you "forthcoming" with the events of the day before with your new employer?), but good luck to you anyway~!

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 26, 2003

Big Bab's thanks for sharing your story. It could happen that way for any of us in pain.

Lemonhead · Nov 27, 2003

Felony theft charges are not only by stealing controlled substances--you are sadly mistaken on that--it can be any drug that is labeled "dangerous" and any drug that requires a script, by law, is considered dangerous. Nor do you have to be in "possession" of the drug. I clearly stated that I was charged with theft for not documenting dispension--I was not in possession. Just because it's a "felony" does not mean it has to be something "big" or "valuable"..there are different levels of felony's and with the vagueness of the laws, many things can be considered felony's. In addition, some of these thefts can even be classified in to federal violations--and it does happen. I think perhaps you're watching too much TV.

This is exactly why nurses need to be educated and understand your own state laws..it's a very fine line. I wouldn't want people to be paranoid, but I wouldn't want them to be ignorant either--I was incredibly ignorant to law and am amazed at how our justice system functions.

And no-the laws are absolutely NOT designed to keep nurses out of hospitals, like a pedophile is kept out of a preschool. As I've written before, a nurse can make a catastrophic error on a patient (impaired or not)and continue to work for the year it takes to go through -- and those "discipline" actions vary from state to state--I can get hung for one violation and the guy in the state next door can get a written reprimand for the same--there is no consistency and that lack in consistency is what is making our health care system dangerous.

As for criminal charges, criminal law is not about "nursing", it's about being charged for a crime, by the state justice system and it has nothing to do with the nursing board--if you are charged for a crime, it's in the justice system and it involves prosecutors, judges and jury's..they have no "say so" if a nurse returns to a hospital or not, that's up to the boards, they impose a criminal decision and criminal sentence, not a license action. Yes, their decisions will have a bearing on the boards final outcome, but the Board has no bearing on the criminal justice outcome--it's two totally separate issues...in other words, nurses are charged twice for the same crime--the criminal courts and the Board, which functions as a civil court.

Perhaps you cannot follow my post, because you're not listening--you seem to have little, if any, tolerance for the subject---I used to be that way too.

Big Bab's · Nov 27, 2003

Thanks Tweety!!....Like Lemon said, it's nice to be able to tell our stories......and yes, it is a hard one to tell, especially when you don't know how people are going to react to it......Lemon and I both have gotten reactions from one extreme to the other on sites other than this, and its hard......so, many people get it in their heads that we are looking for sympathy or justification for our wrong-doings and situations.....and the fact is we're not!....I know what got me to where I am and I know what I need to do to NOT go back to that place again......but going thru this, it becomes abundantly clear that unless you go thru it or know someone who has, most are completey ignorant as to how this happens and what happens when we get "caught"......I know I personally learned NOTHING about any of this in nursing school, I recall one lecture about it and even that was pretty much a "gloss-ever"....Maybe education is the key here??...Maybe if we were advised of the potentials for this kind of thing and given some "tools" to make sure it doesn't happen, there would be a whole lot fewer of us....Anyway, thanks again for listening!!.....and yeah, I can understand the "not wanting to work with a nurse that is diverting".....and the trust issue.....but what was left out about that comment is that even though we are nurses and "know better", we ARE still human and fallable!!....It's this kind of "super-nurse" mentality and pressure that can and does trigger addictions....after all, we GOTTA keep moving' and we don't have time to take care of ourselves cuz we're out "saving the word", and society can't understand how someone might "crack" under that kind of pressure!?!?......We're NOT made of steel......Society has this expectation of nurses and Dr's being "gods" so to speak, and so when one of us has a major issue like this come up, we get crucified for it!!.....It's too much pressure and HUMANS crack....I don't mean to sound angry here, these are just the cold hard facts and yes, it sucks!