Stealing drugs!! what's your opinion?????

LilgirlRN, ADN, RN · Nov 28, 2003

Yeah, I'd like to be able to educate everyone, not just nurses about what addiction is really about. It's not about willpower, just think about how strongwilled all the addicts you've ever taken care of (or are related to) are. Nurses and doctors are vastly undereducated about addiction. They are especially undereducated about nurses and doctors as addicts. This thread is really about stealing narcs from work. Addiction goes way beyond taking narcotics from work. Those of you who get your drugs froma doctor via prescription instead of stealing them can also be addicts. An addict is an addict. Like I said in a previous post, I think people deserve a second chance, butI am not stupid. You get a second chance and not a second, third etc. I triaged a guy the other night that said I want to stop using. I aske dif he had been in rehab before and he said yeah a bunch of times.... he'd been in treatment seven times before. That don't fly with me. Anyway, it's time to go to bed now, I'm addicted to sleep.

skybirdrising · Nov 28, 2003

Originally posted by LilgirlRN
Yeah, I'd like to be able to educate everyone, not just nurses about what addiction is really about. It's not about willpower, just think about how strongwilled all the addicts you've ever taken care of (or are related to) are. Nurses and doctors are vastly undereducated about addiction. They are especially undereducated about nurses and doctors as addicts. This thread is really about stealing narcs from work. Addiction goes way beyond taking narcotics from work. Those of you who get your drugs froma doctor via prescription instead of stealing them can also be addicts. An addict is an addict. Like I said in a previous post, I think people deserve a second chance, butI am not stupid. You get a second chance and not a second, third etc. I triaged a guy the other night that said I want to stop using. I aske dif he had been in rehab before and he said yeah a bunch of times.... he'd been in treatment seven times before. That don't fly with me. Anyway, it's time to go to bed now, I'm addicted to sleep.

Addiction had to start with a choice. We choose everyday what we will do and what we wont do. Why make concessions for those who are addicts? Undereducated to believe a line of BS. You, an educated elite are stating that doctors and nurses are uneducated with addiction. I would like to see your credentials on what you have done personally to discover the 'causes' of addiction. Until you have a proven theory, I think it would be best to refrain from your 'know-it-all' attitude who thinks she is smarter than the doctors. Realize that addiction is a way people deal with their pain, physically and/or emotionally. It isn't until one faces their pain and CHOOSES to fight it from within, will one ever overcome addiction. Simple as that.

stressednurse · Nov 28, 2003

OK, so manipulate us as coworkers, steal drugs, try to blame it on someone else. Then expect to be treated with respect?

Hey, I will accept that you have a problem... but its not my problem so why am I guilty?

I will accept that you stole the drug because you couldnt help it and you have a problem, so why do I have to suffer?

I will be your friend but not your advocate.

Talk to me, don't manipulate me.

I wish you could understand how much stress is involved in turning you in for what you do.

Lemonhead · Nov 28, 2003

Wow--some raw emotion flowing here! My response to the "hang em all" thoughts---hey, I used to feel the exact same way--I was on that, "I'm a nurse, Queen of the world" schtick too..long before my "using" days--and I WAS a hot nurse--manager, educator, etc, etc--credentials and certifications out the ying yang. But, let me assure you, education, climbing the corporate ladder and placing yourself on a pedestal because you have the training to save lives, does not make you immune to mistakes--you aren't God....and if the day comes that you are slapped down here with the rest of us humans you'll get it...I can't say it enough, "Never say never"...

And, don't worry, plenty of nurses are being prosecuted to the fullest extent and loosing their licenses permanently, so never fear, your wish is being granted across the country.

To those that have posted messages of support and understanding...it is GREATLY appreciated, more than you could ever know--just please, share the information and educate people to the situation. It's alot worse than people are aware of and will probably continue to get worse until some things change. Like I've said before, none of us "users" are here looking for sympathy--just sharing a story and EDUCATING people to not only what happens to you when you use, but what happens to you if you're careless on the job with documentation, etc...everyone should completely understand their state laws and Board rules and regs--and I think some of the naysayers would be a bit shocked to find out the things you can be disciplined for---for instance--if you get reported for not washing your hands--not following universal precautions, your going to be disciplined.....it's in the nursing law.......

And trust me, we've heard it all before, so there isn't anyone on this site that defers me from my cause...I just see them as ignorant and unwilling to be realistic--but then again, it is nursing, the profession notorious for "eating it's young"..I'm not a black eye for the profession, you are, with your lack of understanding and unrealistic views--Never say Never.....

Lemonhead · Nov 28, 2003

LilgirlRN--you are absolutely 100% correct with your comments regarding an undereducated medical community in regards to addiction. For the detractor that asks for stats on that comment, well, just look at any nursing or MD educational curriculum...ask any internist or family practioner how much training they've had on addiction--who needs stats--obviously, you went to nursing school, how much did you learn about it?

If the general medical community knew about addictions and the treatment community, they would be, and should be horrified...it's a far cry from JCAHO accredited hospitals and tightly regulated licensed professions--a far cry.

As for the "choice" comment--of course I chose to use...is anyone saying they were forced? You are missing the point--The behavior of "choosing" turns in to behaviors of "rationilizing" and "denying"..so, when a nurse is taught how to "behave" differently--as in "chose" not to use again and "chose" alternative methods, are you saying, "too late"--"only one choice per life"....what?????? That's kind of strange thinking, especially for a nurse, as we spend a lifetime in a career helping others "choose" what is best for them through education, understanding, individualization and experience--yet, we aren't going to offer that to another, just because she/he's a nurse? Hmmmmm.....

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Nov 28, 2003

I don't smoke or drink alcohol at all. I have never abused medications (the only narcotic I ever received in my whole life was some Demerol I received while in labor)--have NEVER even once taken a Darvocet or Percocet. However, I have experienced some very deep tragedies, humiliations, and rejections in my short lifetime and this has produced a brokenness and empathy for those who are "down and out." These cumulative experiences, as terrible as they were, have added a whole new dimension to my life and a perspective of "mercy" and "grace." I firmly believe in the addage, "There but for the grace of God go I..." Mercy means kindness shown to one who does not deserve it. Grace means harsh judgement is NOT given to one who merits it. You see, at some point in our lives, we ALL need mercy and grace. Sure, I am all for the protection of the public from impaired and addicted nurses, but I also want to see these nurses' careers salvaged and redeemed if at all possible. Mercy SHOULD triumph over judgment. I think of Jesus' response to the accusers of the woman taken in adultery, "Let you who are without sin cast the first stone..." And to the woman He said, "Go and sin no more..."

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 28, 2003

Originally posted by skybirdrising
Addiction had to start with a choice. We choose everyday what we will do and what we wont do. Why make concessions for those who are addicts? Undereducated to believe a line of BS. You, an educated elite are stating that doctors and nurses are uneducated with addiction. I would like to see your credentials on what you have done personally to discover the 'causes' of addiction. Until you have a proven theory, I think it would be best to refrain from your 'know-it-all' attitude who thinks she is smarter than the doctors. Realize that addiction is a way people deal with their pain, physically and/or emotionally. It isn't until one faces their pain and CHOOSES to fight it from within, will one ever overcome addiction. Simple as that.

We are going to have to agree to disagree here.

Addiction does start with a choice. Someone is in pain and they take a pill. Some teenager somewhere is convinced to take a shot of heroin, drink a drink of booze. They have to consciously go to the liquor store to get the booze, they have to consciously find a dealer for a fix, they have to consiously divert narcotics for their own use. There are some definately choices involved.

But I disagree with your statement "addiction is a way people deal with their pain, physically and/or emotionally".

I strongly feel addiction is a physical "disease". Every human body is different. One person in high school who has his first drink and gets drunk goes does fine. One other person who takes that first drink sets up a physiological cellular process that causes him to become an alcoholic. There are too many addicts and alcholics from all kinds of backgrounds and cultures and emotional constitutions for me to think that it doesn't start on a physical level. Somewhere along the line they loose the choice whether they use or not. They need help from soemwhere outside and within themselves to stop.

Of course addiction as an emotional component. Sometimes being clean and sober and dealing with life on lifes terms is emotionally too painful for the addict.

I'm not trying to force my opinions on you, however, I do have opinions of my own and am not shy in sharing them. LOL

Oh and I also disagree with your assessment of LilgirlRN.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 28, 2003

Originally posted by stressednurse
OK, so manipulate us as coworkers, steal drugs, try to blame it on someone else. Then expect to be treated with respect?

Hey, I will accept that you have a problem... but its not my problem so why am I guilty?

I will accept that you stole the drug because you couldnt help it and you have a problem, so why do I have to suffer?

I will be your friend but not your advocate.

Talk to me, don't manipulate me.

I wish you could understand how much stress is involved in turning you in for what you do.

Rather than feel that turning someone is as "suffering" and stressfull, it's your duty and expectation to protect the health of the patients. It's also an act of compassion, because perhaps this addict will be forced to get some help, to look at their lying and manipulating ways and realize what a danger they are.

But also look beyond the lying, manipulating thief to the human being there. Surely as a nurse you don't look beyond your drug addict and alcoholic patients and treat whatever they are in your care for.

I do agree that having to turn someone in for suspected narcotic diversion has to be very stressful. I haven't had to do it, so until I do perhaps I should shut up. But I would hope I would look at it as a positive thing. Please realize I'm not trying to pass judgement on your feelings or change how you feel. Just babbling and thanks for listening.

Also, I don't understand at all your statement "it's not my problem so why am I guilty".

LilgirlRN, ADN, RN · Nov 28, 2003

I meant to post this here, not as a new thread, dunno what happened...

know it all Post #1

Let me make this point.... if we were educated about addiction in nursing school, would as many nurses as do, actually become addicts? If properly educated could they see it coming? If properly educated could other nurses spot their coworkers before they were in trouble? For those of you who smoke, if you knew it would be so incredibly hard to stop, and if you knew the physiology behind the addiction would you have started in the first place? As far as my "know it all attitude", I've worked with several nurses who have been through rehab. One of my best friends is a nurse who is disabled form an injury at work and became an addict because of her pain. She was addicted to oxycontin, her pain specialist talked her into going to detox and then to rehab. The rehab center that she went to made her turn herself in to the BON even though she wasn't working. So, now she is in their monitoring program. She is my best friend, I knew she had pain all the time, I knew she was addicted to the medicine but I didn't know how to help her. Since getting off the meds, she's had a spinal cord stimulator put in, it helps with the pain. She loves being a nurse and she is an excellent one, she doesn't know if she will ever be able to work again but keeps hope that she can and that's why she's going through all this to keep her license. I even go with her to her mandated 12 step meetings from time to time. You'd be surprised how many nurses are there, how many doctors, veterinarians ... all very intelligent people. All of them will tell you that they knew practically NOTHING about addiction. I used to be judgemental about addicts too. I work in the ED, so I see drug seeking behavior all the time. I used to think that they were scum too, until it happened to my best friend. Yes, it begins as a choice, but if you take enough, long enough, you're hooked and then you'll do whatever you have to to not go through withdrawl. I hope this helps explain my "knowitallness".

LilgirlRN, ADN, RN · Nov 28, 2003

bluesky

Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2003

Location: McDonald's

Posts: 242

Post #2

Well I only speak for myself but I had been cognitively well educated about the perils of smoking before I started. After 10 years, the only thing that got me to stop was getting pregnant. Haven't had a smoke in over 3 yrs, tho.

The situation with your friend sounds just tragic. Hopefully science will catch up and develop some real solutions to chronic pain so that your friend and others won't have to go through addiction h**l. A few weeks ago there was a thread started about Rush Limbaugh's situation that led to some great insights into the mechanism of addiction. I think StevieLynn started it.

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"Well behaved women rarely make history"

Last edited by bluesky on 11-28-2003 at 11:17 AM

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11-28-2003 11:12 AM

3rdShiftGuy

aka "Tweety"

Registered: Oct 2002

Location: Somewhere Out There

Posts: 3742

Post #3

Sweetness, you didn't have to explain yourself.

You do bring up some good points. Nurses and the general public don't have a grasp on what addiction is. The "they did to themselves why should I feel sorry for them" attitude is so prevalent in nurses and the general public. I'm sure we've all heard a nurse say that coming out of an alcholics room.

To answer your question that would education stop nurses from becoming addicts in the first place? Probably not. Addiction doesn't discriminate against the uneducated vs. the educated. Perhaps though being educated as to what resources there are available, what the symptoms are, and to talk more about it they might seek help quicker.

Let me say loud and clear again. Nurses who divert narcotics should have their licensed revoked and should be removed from patient care. They are a danger to their patients.

I feel strongly however, that at their own expense, or through their employee assistance program, they should be given the chance for treatment and the opportunity to eventually practice again. A nurse is a terrible thing to waste.

An addict isn't a good person gone bad. Treat the addiction and the good nurse can be a productive memeber of the team again. In my not so humble opinion.

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Happiness is the absence of striving for happiness.

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I apologize now for the typos and misspellings in my post.

Tweety

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11-28-2003 11:50 AM

Agnus

Senior Member

Registered: Nov 1999

Location: AZ

Posts: 1537

Post #4

Help me out here. I was taught that genuine physical pain is not adiction. One does eventually build a tollerence to pain meds and increased doses are needed.

I was taught if one is truly adicted it is a psycological issue. They just like (crave) the feeling they get from the medication.

It sounds (to me) like your friend has physical pain. Just because it requires incresed doses for the med now to work does not = addiction. Just because the cause of the pain is unknown does not mean it is not physical and does not have a physical cause.

A lot of physical pain is genuine. But when we become ineffective at treating or finding the cause our own frustrating leads us to blame the pt. and acuse them of being addicted, mlingering etc.

If she is needing a spinal stimulator this suggest that this in not psycological craving for the way the med makes her feel. It suggest real pain that needs to be acknowleged and addressed.

Too often people have unrealistic expectations of us to cure them. AND too often we have unrealistic expectations of our ability to cure. If our treatment/ cure does not work we (the medical community) are too big headed to admit that maybe we failed and don't have all the answers.

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11-28-2003 11:57 AM

ktwlpn

Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2000

Location: purgatory

Posts: 1047

Post #5

quote:

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Originally posted by Agnus

Help me out here. I was taught that genuine physical pain is not adiction. One does eventually build a tollerence to pain meds and increased doses are needed.

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Agnus is right-we have talked about this before-the problem that I see is in lack of knowledge regarding pain control....

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When I die I want to go like my grandmother who died peacefully in her sleep, not screaming like all the passengers in her car..... "Why don't you get a job,y'know? Be a nurse,work with blind kids,lepers....." Tony Montana-"Scarface"

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11-28-2003 11:59 AM

LilgirlRN

Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001

Location: Alabama

Posts: 776

Post #6

I meant to put my know it all post on the stealing drug thread, I didn't mean to start a new thread. Please put your replies on that thread, sorry.... Wendy

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11-28-2003 12:17 PM

Agnus

Senior Member

Registered: Nov 1999

Location: AZ

Posts: 1537

Post #7

Please, do not get me wrong. I do not sympathize with those who divert, nor who are in denial about adiction.

I do not sympathize with anyone who shows up for work under the influence etc.

I do too often see situations where we take it upon ourselves (medical folks, MD, nurses etc) to deside while this person is in the hospital we are going to detox them, against thier will.

I see situations werer known addicts are not given proper pain control because of their addiction. It seems a hard concept for our professions to swallow that addicts need more pain med to control pain and not less.

I also see situations where a person who has long term geuning pain is kept of or weaned down on dosage because it is considered an addiction.

I have NO tollerance for nonsense displayed by addicts And I have a problem with ever MD or nurse, social worker etc who pronounce people with chronic pain issues as an addict not deserving of pain medication. Because you do not see a reason for the pain does not mean it is not real. Does not mean it is an addiction.

Yes I understand addicts say they have pain. In a sense they do but it is not physical it is psycological. (we are not talking psycosomatic here)

Howerver, a certain amount of carful sensitive observation can often sort out what is pain and what is not.

And we know that taking someont off med s because we believe there are addicted is not compassion unless it is done with thier consent and undrstanding and agreement.

I see too many alcholics dried out against thier will only to head to the nearest bar on discharge. We are doing society a disservice wasting money on this AND we are inflicting the discomfort and risks of withdrawal on this soul without thier informed consent and to no purpose other than to make us feel superior and to demonstrated this person is not worthy of help "becuase look what they do."

When it comes to this we are far too paternalistic. And to questions our self proclaimed athority meets with rath and indictments.

In life in general I have come to learn that when some one starts acusing and blaming is when they themselves are ineffective. It is a defensive mechanism used to distract attention from the fact that they cannot fix something, don't have the answer, or failed. My God don't admit that maybe we don't know! It is easier to blame the other person.

I used to be married to a man who admitted that he truly believe that if I asked him a question he had to KNOW the right answer. (he admitted this in a discussion after the divorce. During the marriage I had told him it was OK if he did not know the answers. Just tell me and I would stop asking for clarification)

When his answers did not make sense he began acusing me of being too stupid to understand.

It took me years to figure out what was going on. He could not explain it effecitively because he simply did not know the answere and could not admit it.

Since then I have been able to recognize this same behavior in others.

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11-28-2003 12:26 PM

Daisy · Nov 28, 2003

our hospital has recently spent a fortune in a computerized medication administration system. while we have this modern safety system for drug administration, we still have an antiquated narcotic system from the ice age.we still count twice a day and everything is paper and pencil. how's that for an opportunity to steal? the hospital doesn't seem to want to put the money out for better system like Pyxis which controls it better.

Big Bab's · Nov 28, 2003

Originally posted by skybirdrising
Addiction had to start with a choice. We choose everyday what we will do and what we wont do. Why make concessions for those who are addicts? Undereducated to believe a line of BS. You, an educated elite are stating that doctors and nurses are uneducated with addiction. I would like to see your credentials on what you have done personally to discover the 'causes' of addiction. Until you have a proven theory, I think it would be best to refrain from your 'know-it-all' attitude who thinks she is smarter than the doctors. Realize that addiction is a way people deal with their pain, physically and/or emotionally. It isn't until one faces their pain and CHOOSES to fight it from within, will one ever overcome addiction. Simple as that.

"Addiction is a way people deal with their pain, physically and/or emotionally."?????.......Sooooo a patient has surgery which requires pain medication and that makes him/her an addict??!.....Well, next time that total knee replacement patient comes in for pain meds I'll just tell him to "fight it from within you wussy addict!".......You've got to be kidding!!!!!!...........and hell yes!!..Dr's and nurses are VERY igorant about addiction......there are currently alot of research projects about addiction going on, and also MANY theories about it, which by the way NONE of them have been proven, including the "choice" that you spoke about.........Many healthcare professionals know next to nothing about it....it would appear that you are one of them.