Stealing drugs!! what's your opinion?????

Lemonhead · Nov 28, 2003

You guys have all made some excellent points. My 4 years involved in this "system" has opened my eyes--it's been shocking and depressing--but, hey, I used to be judgemental about "those people"....I was clueless and I could guarantee 90% of the nurses that I worked with were too.

Unfortunately, just like any other condition, alcoholism/addiction has so many levels, but like we've said before, everyone is lumped in to one big category. There are very few alternatives available for a person labeled an addict...and that "labelling" is very vague and VERY easy....and once lumped in to that category--you'll never escape.

I did what I had to do to "recover"...I was blessed with a supportive family--but for the THOUSANDS that don't have the support and can't fit in to the cookie cutter, "one size fits all", treatment industry, they fail miserably. It's very sad to see a person so desperate to turn their lives around, yet disagree with certain aspects of their treatment, and be told that they are failures, in denial or "dying emotionally" because they cannot click with the major method that is pushed pretty much everywhere. There are so few alternatives and a person court ordered or board ordered is given NO alternatives--can you imagine if we did that to every patient with a condition--it's wrong, pure and simple, and why thousands of people relapse and continue on wasting away--it's sickening.

Fortunately, I think most nurses, once over that initial shock, intimidation and "fear of the unknown", will figure out what works for them--we have the medical background to better understand this stuff and apply it to our personal situation--so many people don't have that luxury and suffer for years.

If I knew then, what I knew now...no way...wouldn't have happened...now, I'm the first to say never say never, but first of all, I would have known how to get help--that is not real widely explained in our profession--second of all, I never knew of a nurse that ever went to jail for diverting---I had NO idea the consequences were so severe--NO IDEA...So, if the least we can do is educate people that a.) It happens b.) There is help without loosing everything and c.) they are not alone, then it's an accomplishment...let alone getting the "non users" as well to understand their own state laws....all of those things NOT taught in nursing school.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Nov 28, 2003

Lemonhead, as a relatively new nursing instructor, let me ask you--what sorts of things do we NEED to be teaching in nursing school about diversion? Please educate me on this subject, as I am very open to suggestions.

Lemonhead · Nov 28, 2003

Hi Vicky--geez, where to start...first and foremost, I think every nurse should very clearly understand their state laws, administrative procedure (hearings, etc), how disciplinary actions are handled, the backgrounds of Board members--most importantly, to understand that our Boards are Law Enforcement Agency's, not our ally's in times of trouble. I certainly did not understand that differentiation when I was first involved and definately did not learn it in nursing school. Nursing students need to understand what they can be disciplined for, who disciplines them and the severity levels of discipline. I think that's step one in curbing some of this stuff--not being paranoid, but putting enough "Fear Factor" there--I did not have any idea about the functioning of a state board and I can very honestly say, it may have had a major bearing on my using--as in seeking help on my own. I certainly never knew a State Board Member and/or Employee is actually considered a law enforcement agent...

Second of all--to focus on addiction--mainly to explain that nobody is immune..regardless of upbringing, family life, etc...NOBODY is immune and it can happen in a flash--maybe explain the mood altering effects of narcs and why it's so "easy" to enjoy that warm, fuzzy, relaxing feeling--especially in a stressful field.....how easy it is to get sucked in, after a terrible night, take a little med, float off in to la-la land and wake up feeling great---putting it REALISTICLY---not the portrait of the strung out heroine addict, but the nurse sitting back in a warm cozy bed, dozing off comfortably thanks to the effects of narcotic.....just be realistic and apply it on a "nursing" level...and share stories...have people come talk if they will....let them see real nurses in the flesh that have "been there, done that" and jeopardized their careers over it.

And of course, explain what kind of help is available in your state...and definately, explain alternatives--there is so much more out there than the 12 steps and people need to know that--especially if the 12 steps conflict with personal beliefs. Maybe have someone from your state diversion program come talk to them about what happens once a nurse either self reports or is reported by a colleague.

I'm glad you're interested--I think it is absolutely critical that this taboo topic be PUSHED in nursing school....If you want to post your state, I've done quite a bit of research and could give you any information that I have..it's actually a fascinating subject once you get going and amazing at how differently the state's function. Thanks for your interest and good luck with the teaching!!!

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 28, 2003

Agnus, you stated "Howerver, a certain amount of carful sensitive observation can often sort out what is pain and what is not."

Aren't we taught that pain is what is reported by the person experiencing the pain. That regardless of what our observations are it is not for us to sort out what is and what is not?

I wholeheartedly agree with the detox issue. We dry out so many alchoholics, wasting our pressure time and money when they don't want it.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Nov 29, 2003

If you want to post your state, I've done quite a bit of research and could give you any information that I have..it's actually a fascinating subject once you get going and amazing at how differently the state's function. Thanks for your interest and good luck with the teaching!!!

North Carolina... thanks for any information. I know that our State Board is one of the few--if not the only State Nurses Board--that is elected by nurses. Other states' boards are appointed by state politicos.

LilgirlRN, ADN, RN · Nov 29, 2003

Lemonhead... what about your 1st amendment rights? If your state is mandating you to go to 12 step meetings and the focus of these 12 step meetings as I understand it, is not only not using or drinking but also your relationship with God. If this is the case is this not a separation of church and state issue? The state is sanctioning religion, what if you were atheist? What choice would you have then? IMO they use 12 step meetings as punishment, I know they say it's part of the rehab...but... So, if no 12 step meetings then what would they have recovering nurses do? The meetings that I have been to just seem so full of old cliche`s, they don't seem to help anyone that I can tell, but then I am not sure what anyone is supposed to get out of them. When I think about these nurses that HAVE to go to at least 3 meetings a week 52 weeks a year for 3-5 years, I just don't know how they stand it. I would only go cause the state was making me go, it would never be anything I would choose to go to. I know that some of the people at the Rational Recovery site are challenging the state's ability to make people attend these meetings, just wondered if you knew anyone who had actually done it?

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 29, 2003

Originally posted by LilgirlRN
Lemonhead... what about your 1st amendment rights?

The state isn't mandating anything. It is offering 12-steps as a way to recovery. It's the addicts choice whether or not to accept the conditions. One can always refuse. It's on honor and a privilege to offer them recovery, not necessarily their right after they've stolen drugs. IMO

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Nov 29, 2003

Once they steal or Divert drugs, then they should be removed from nursing forever more.

I know of one case where a nurse wasnt stealing drugs for herself but to for her boyfriend, and they discussed endlessly if this should be treated differently due to the circumstances, Hell no, she stole drugs she should be removed. Not only is it a drug issue, and a theft issue. She is in direct violation of most states laws and BONs regulations. Get rid of that nurse. That nurse will never be trusted, nor respected. and should never be involved in patient care again.

This is a matter of black and white.. Gray cant be allowed to play into it. Wrong is wrong is wrong and no matter what you do you cant make a wrong a right.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 29, 2003

Originally posted by teeituptom
Once they steal or Divert drugs, then they should be removed from nursing forever more.
I know of one case where a nurse wasnt stealing drugs for herself but to for her boyfriend, and they discussed endlessly if this should be treated differently due to the circumstances, Hell no, she stole drugs she should be removed. Not only is it a drug issue, and a theft issue. She is in direct violation of most states laws and BONs regulations. Get rid of that nurse. That nurse will never be trusted, nor respected. and should never be involved in patient care again.
This is a matter of black and white.. Gray cant be allowed to play into it. Wrong is wrong is wrong and no matter what you do you cant make a wrong a right.

I disagree with just about everything you have to say in this post.

Yes, it is a theft and a crime. Remove them from nursing immediately. I guess I've made my opinion known already. You are certainly entitled to yours.

To me life, compassion, nursing, caring for a sick person is always gray. Never black or white. I just have to decide where I stand. For instance if you ask me if a convicted child molestor after he does his jail time should be allowed to be a camp counselor I would say no. I'm a bit fickle like that.

Agnus · Nov 29, 2003

Originally posted by 3rdShiftGuy
Agnus, you stated "Howerver, a certain amount of carful sensitive observation can often sort out what is pain and what is not."

Aren't we taught that pain is what is reported by the person experiencing the pain. That regardless of what our observations are it is not for us to sort out what is and what is not?

I wholeheartedly agree with the detox issue. We dry out so many alchoholics, wasting our pressure time and money when they don't want it.

Yes, you are right. I was not clear in what I meant. You see I have had patients who have a known undrlying reason for pain, yet they were still reguarded as addicts. This is what I meant by careful sensitive observation. I did not express myself well and apologize. At the time the correct words would not come to me.

LilgirlRN, ADN, RN · Nov 29, 2003

You can have a legitimate need for pain medicine and still be an addict. If a person is taking more than the prescribed amount or taking it for purposes other than pain control (such as sleep or just to mellow out) then there is a problem.

barefootlady, ADN, RN · Nov 29, 2003

Stealing meds is wrong. Taking meds for a purpose other than intended is wrong . I do think that nurses can more easily fall prey to these behaviors because they have access to meds. I think an effected nurse does deserve a chance to have treatment and be allowed to practice nursing, in an area where drugs are not available, once treatment is completed.

That said, I too, worked with a nurse that did not steal drugs, but bought street drugs for her boyfiend. SHE deserved to loose her license. SHE should not be allowed to practice nursing. She does not deserve to be able to sign R.N. after her name. That said, she has never received any type of punishment for her actions. She works everyday. I NEVER worked with her that I felt comfortable, wanted her to co-sign for waste,or give any of my patients meds. To this day she does not see how negative her actions were. To this day she makes my skin crawl if we are in the same room.

I do not want to be judgemental or narrowminded, but I know if the shoe was on my foot today, some of the people who have participated in these behaviors would push me out the door and never give a second thought to the fact that it could/should have been them being punished.