Stealing drugs!! what's your opinion?????

bail · Nov 29, 2003

I work in a psych hopsital. All nurses on my unit were drug screened this last week, because allegedly some narcs came up missing. Now, if all drug screens are negative, what else can the employer do?

Lemonhead · Nov 29, 2003

LilgirlRN-There have been some court rulings against mandated 12 steps..most people are not even aware of them though and do not fight the mandated 12 steps out of intimidation and vulnerability.

It is mandated, there are no options. In any contract I've had with the state it clearly stated that I had to document not only proof of attending 12 step meetings, but I had to prove I had obtained a "sponsor", I had to prove that I was "working the steps" and my "sponsor's letters" had a big impact on my "progress" in the opinion of the Board. In this state, all of the case monitors were in recovery themselves, via the 12 steps, so it was that way or NO way...and that is very clearly, not only legally written, but spoken...I questioned the 12 steps many times and was told some of the most bizarre things...that I would "die" if I didn't do the 12 steps, that my family could never "help", only 12 step members could, etc....I cannot put on this board my true opinion of the 12 steps--it would take too long and probably end up too foul.

There are only 2 diversionary programs in the country that I know of that offer alternatives--Oregon and Arizona--or so they've told me...but, I have a feeling, there aren't too many nurses with a license on the line that are going to go against the majority, especially if their own casemanager follows the 12 steps.

Incidentally, I am not atheist and the 12 steps does not offend only atheist..it was a complete abomination of my Christian beliefs.

So, to answer your questions, yes, it has been found in some of our courts to be unconstitutional, and that covers 4 states so far--I'll pursue it in my state as well, as even after I voiced specific religious issues, the Board continues to mandate it if I ever want to see my license again....

Lemonhead · Nov 29, 2003

In regards to the staff being tested and the "missing drugs"...there really isn't alot they can do--if they truly believe there's been theft, they can call in the nursing board and pharmacy boards or even the local law enforcement to thoroughly investigate...then all of you would probably be subjected to "interogations", etc..But, from the cases I've seen--unless there is a real strong suspicion, strong evidence and a person or two pegged, they'll drop it and just put everyone of "watch"..and if they tell any of you that your drug tests were positive..ask to see them..I was told my original drug test was positive..found out 3 years after the fact, it was completely negative....

Big Bab's · Nov 29, 2003

Originally posted by LilgirlRN
You can have a legitimate need for pain medicine and still be an addict. If a person is taking more than the prescribed amount or taking it for purposes other than pain control (such as sleep or just to mellow out) then there is a problem.

You nailed it again Lilgirl!!!.....This is a VERY accurate summery of the situation I ended up in.......I took what was RX'd to me by my Dr., but of course after a while you run into tolerance issues too, therefore needing more and more med.......It sucks when this happens, and it sucks that we are terrified to admit the situation and get the help we need, for fear of licenses being revoke and families torn apart by it....we really need to afford eachother the same compassion and help that we would any of our patients....we are human too.

Big Bab's · Nov 29, 2003

Originally posted by 3rdShiftGuy
The state isn't mandating anything. It is offering 12-steps as a way to recovery. It's the addicts choice whether or not to accept the conditions. One can always refuse. It's on honor and a privilege to offer them recovery, not necessarily their right after they've stolen drugs. IMO

What you're missing here is that by mandating 12 step meetings or nothing at all, the states are violating our rights.....The courts have ALREADY ruled that the 12 steps are religious in nature and so by offering 12 steps or nothing.....they are violating our rights to freedom of religion......This issue is no longer an issue of opinion, it's flat out illegal!!...and the courts have ruled it that way......the point that's missing here is that the problem in NOT the states mandating "recovery" its that they mandate HOW we recover......It shouldn't matter how we maintain our sobriety, just the fact that we DO maintain sobriety should be enough.....If my "recovery" is acheived by praying to my pet ferret while dancing in the rain on my front lawn bare-ass naked, while the hell should they care!??! (of course I would LOOK drunk as hell doing it!)....The fact is I'm sober and always will be, and if they want to "monitor" that sobriety with bodily fluid testing, its fine by me.........but they need to but out of the rest of it!!

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 29, 2003

Originally posted by Big Bab's
What you're missing here is that by mandating 12 step meetings or nothing at all, the states are violating our rights.....The courts have ALREADY ruled that the 12 steps are religious in nature and so by offering 12 steps or nothing.....they are violating our rights to freedom of religion......This issue is no longer an issue of opinion, it's flat out illegal!!...and the courts have ruled it that way......the point that's missing here is that the problem in NOT the states mandating "recovery" its that they mandate HOW we recover......It shouldn't matter how we maintain our sobriety, just the fact that we DO maintain sobriety should be enough.....If my "recovery" is acheived by praying to my pet ferret while dancing in the rain on my front lawn bare-ass naked, while the hell should they care!??! (of course I would LOOK drunk as hell doing it!)....The fact is I'm sober and always will be, and if they want to "monitor" that sobriety with bodily fluid testing, its fine by me.........but they need to but out of the rest of it!!

I see a little clearer what you are saying.

I still look at it as more of an offering. No one is holding a gun to your head saying this is what you HAVE to do. No one is even saying you have to work the 12 steps, just show up to the meetings. You can always choose not to it, you do have that right. Of course that choice leads to the surrender of your nursing license.

Florida does monitor impaired nurses with urine testing for a number of years. I'm not sure how I feel about the mandated meetings, and I can see your point. Perhaps there should be more choice. But to let people loose on their own, without any help from others be that therapy, be that 12-steps, be that sobriety alternatives, doesn't work. I don't think people recover well on their own.

The bottom line is impaired nurses are a danger to the patients and to themselves. Some sort of plan needs to be offered to allow them to get well. Be a little thankful it's not like some states where you loose your license forever and goodbye.

Be careful also with statements like "I'm sober now and always will be." That's cocky and dangerous IMHO.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 29, 2003

Originally posted by bail
I work in a psych hopsital. All nurses on my unit were drug screened this last week, because allegedly some narcs came up missing. Now, if all drug screens are negative, what else can the employer do?

I suppose there isn't much they can do. They would have to look at the process and see if any errors were made. Look for patterns. Someone could be stealing and not using, but selling. That's difficult to prove though, but eventually people usually get caught. It's just a matter of time.

We had some missing drugs and they interviewed us individually, asking questions like "have you noticed any strange behavior in your coworkers". But they were quick to point out that they wanted the drug diverter to be found and to get some help.

bail · Nov 29, 2003

Hi,

Thanks for your input.......it's very nervewrecking......we are all on edge.......as far as the drug screens, they told us "no news is good news", and it's been over a week, and none of us have heard anything about the drug screens. The administration has told us they want to "talk" to us now, also. This leads me to think the tests were negative and they are starting their interrogations.......what say you all?

Big Bab's · Nov 29, 2003

Originally posted by bail
Hi,

Thanks for your input.......it's very nervewrecking......we are all on edge.......as far as the drug screens, they told us "no news is good news", and it's been over a week, and none of us have heard anything about the drug screens. The administration has told us they want to "talk" to us now, also. This leads me to think the tests were negative and they are starting their interrogations.......what say you all?

My advice would be, be truthful with them, BUT expect the same from them!!.....Like was said before, if they say anything to the effect of "we have your urine results and know you've been using." make them prove it!!....I have heard it more than once in this situation, and the nurse inadvertently admits to wrong doing, or even IMPLIED wrong doing only to then find out later that the results were in fact negative, but then it doesn't matter because they have and "iffy" statement from the nurse and that's all they need.

Tweety, You are right, NO impaired nurse should just be thrown out there on there own, there needs to be "a plan" but a plan that is INDIVIDUALIZED!!...like any care-plan we would write for our patients......Options need to talked about then then a plan drawn up by the nurse, employer, BON or monitoring program....ie....I will attend 3 AA/NA meeting per week, or I will use the rational recovery method by taking the course on AVRT.....or I will attend blah blah number of meetings a week with the Psychologist of my choice......and in return the "program" says, we will monitoring your continued sobriety with random UA's blah blah times a month, week, whatever........and if the nurse doesn't "stick to it", has a "relapse".....then that's it, you're out and out for good!!.....We try as much as possible to include our patients in their care-plans and give them options of treatment to choose from....but we don't afford our own peers the same, and its sooo not right or fair.......Most "monitoring programs" are 3 to 5 year contracts, the one that I am in is 5 and I am in my second year (3/10/04 will be 2 years)......in this program, after 2 years of COMPLETE compliance you can negotiate some changes in your contract.....ie..fewer meetings, fewer UA's.....etc....They allow this in an effort to help the nurse "phase out" while still being monitored, I honestly think it would a hugely bad idea to just "dump em out" after their 3 to 5 years....kinda like dropping a convict in the middle of nowhere after being told what to do and where to go while in prison for years and years.....There really are sooo many layers to this!!....which is probably why its such a controversial subject......The bottom line is that we CAN be reformed, rehab'd, whatever term you wanna use.....it just depends on how much society thinks its worth to invest in.

Bab's.....I'm worth it!

Big Bab's · Nov 30, 2003

I almost forgot, I say "sober and always will be" because I personally use Rational Recovery to maintain my sobriety....which teaches making a conscious decision to NEVER use again....it treats it as a behavioral issue, and makes ME accountable for my sobriety instead of me "relapsing" and blaming a fictional disease.....The disease theory has NEVER been proven and AA/NA use it to create a "self-fulfilling prophecy" with its teachings of "powerlessness" and non-accountability......BUT thats a whole other can of worms!......Anywho, used in this fashion it is no more reckless than someone saying "I will never drive my car off a cliff on purpose!".....of course you wouldn't, so why would I??.....Thanks for listening!...I do not expect everyone to believe in the same things that I do....The whole topic of addiction is very controversial at this stage of the game BECAUSE no one theory has ever been proven and that in itself makes it a very "hot topic"......Thanks again!!:) :)

Lemonhead · Nov 30, 2003

Originally posted by bail
Hi,

Thanks for your input.......it's very nervewrecking......we are all on edge.......as far as the drug screens, they told us "no news is good news", and it's been over a week, and none of us have heard anything about the drug screens. The administration has told us they want to "talk" to us now, also. This leads me to think the tests were negative and they are starting their interrogations.......what say you all?

Like BigsBabs said...be truthful, but remember, you are being questioned in regards to a possible violation of criminal law, so treat it just as you would a criminal "interrogation". If you did nothing wrong and you don't suspect any of your own coworkers, DO NOT give them the opportunity to twist or turn any of your comments..keep the answers simple and vague--like I said, my urine test was completely negative, 3 years after being told it was positive..another great tactic is to begin to question you about your "stress"---"so, you've been under alot of stress....." and lead in to questions that'll have you so confused --and of course, they'll convince you that one of your coworkers "needs help" and they are only there to help...and continue to "think real hard" about your coworkers behaviours--in other words, till you agree and spill out a name....it's can be a real mind game--and don't get me wrong, if you think someone needs help, it needs to be pursued, but be very cautious--for me personally, I don't think I could give a name without talking to the person first--I would have to go to that person one on one and confront them and go from there...only because I've been through the criminal and board end and most of it is major overkill for those of us that steal..

Just be careful, don't offer more information than what you're comfortable giving and don't let them "talk you in to" having a problem if you don't...it does happen. Good luck!

Lemonhead · Nov 30, 2003

I was reading some of the other threads on this forum...is Skybirdrising really a nursing student? Wow, that "hang 'em all" attitude is in for a rude awakening....