Stealing drugs!! what's your opinion?????

bail · Dec 1, 2003

To Lemonhead and all others,

I am deeply touched by your story.......and appreciate your honesty. Where I work, and where narcs are allegedly missing, we use a sign out sheet, one big sheet with all the narcs written on it. We sign out the narc on a thin line, and then deduct that one from the total number of the particular narcotic. I've never liked these sheets, they can get messy and messed up and they do. Especially if it's a hectic day or evening. Anyway, at the end of this sheet, you then have to start a new one, meaning you have to "carry over" the total of each narcotic from the previous sheet. Sometimes errors are made, but they are corrected. Apparently, under a certain narcotic, the number of total pills was changed, or written over, or something like that. This was caught by a night nurse who had, apparently good recall, as she was certain that that was not the correct amount of that narcotic. She reported this to the pharmacist, and indeed, it was found that the number had been changed. I need help here, because I actually witnessed another nurse changing the narcotic count sheet to match what I had counted in the drawer. I had two of whatever, and she showed four on the sheet, and rather than look for it, she changed the sheet. It was busy, it was stupid, but I didn't report this. It happend another time. I reportec it. However, no one seemed to believe me. It was shrugged off with "I'm not suprised at all",. Now, we have come to everyone getting drug screens because of missing narcs, and I actually had to give my urine sample on a Friday, and the other nurse was given a four day wait, because she "couldn't go" on Friday. I've been asked if I needed help, and I told them I don't have the problem, I'm not taking their drugs, and again, told them about this other situation. Plus, those narcotic sheets lay around the unit for more than a day before pharmacy picks them up, especially on the weekends. Anyone could mess with them. So, my urine test is negative, now they want to "ask me some questions" this week, and I'm going through all kinds of mixed feelings. I'm angry at myself, I'm pissed off at them, and intimidated. Help!!!

Lemonhead · Dec 1, 2003

Bail, whew, you've got a dilemna--I know in places that I've worked that we had the narc sheets, as opposed to the computerized systems, there were nurses that would just "change" the number to match up. And it went unnoticed many times...

I don't mean to scare you, but honestly, I would call an attorney...I know other's think that's "poo-poo", but, you witnessed another nurse falsify a document, and I'm guessing you co-signed for the count, which may hold you responsible too. If you could go in and say.."yeah, I saw her change it because it didn't match..." and that would be the end of it, that would be one thing, but changing records can turn in to a pretty big offense, especially when it involves narcotic sheets---so, I would caution you to not talk to them until you've had a chance to just talk to an attorney that deals with license law....alot of these lawyers will give you a good bit of info over the phone--and they may say it's no biggie and harmless, but I'd make sure before I put my license on the line. Just keep in mind that something as simple as changing a number can turn in to a whole lot of criminal charges--fraud, deception to obtain, theft, etc...so, look at the big picture and prepare yourself before you answer ANYBODY'S questions....You have a right to consult with someone and make certain that you aren't walking in to a fire pit...

Something similar happened in one of the places I worked in, they actually only held the "changer" responsible because the shift counts were always the same as far as the offgoing shift counted and oncoming shift documented....but the paper sheets are assinine for exactly that reason--who's to say it can't be changed if you aren't sitting there watching everything the other person is writing...and most the time you aren't because YOU"RE COUNTING..so, it's a screwy system and they know that--also, when and if they question you, I would question them as well--did they go through ALL of the charts to see if they were off--did they compare charts to med sheet in regards to counting...sometimes they do a half assed investigation and present info that isn't exactly complete....

As for my "positive" urine..to make a long story not so long....I was questioned about using, denied it, took a drug test, called 4 days later, told it was positive, asked to see it, told I couldn't without a subpeona because it was now a legal issue, went in to the Board diversionary program, got kicked out after being involved in it for 3 years because I fell behind on paperwork when my dad was dying and I had cancer surgery, when they terminated me, they sent charges to a county prosecutor, she charged me with the original drug theft from 3 years earlier--since I was going to criminal court, I had a right to all of the evidence, when I received it, I found out that not only was my original urine completely negative, but they had also used the wrong patient charts...as in wrong names, dates, etc...

Kind of like when cops tell people that they failed their lie detector tests or make up stories about bogus evidence to get "confessions.."

That is why I cannot stress enough....DO NOT allow them to mess with your head and absolutely do not answer questions until you've either talked to an attorney or your completely confident about where you stand...again, not meaning to scare you, but anything involving narcs/controlled substances is serious business and there's not a lot of rules that they have to play by...

nurse62 · Dec 1, 2003

We had a large amount of MS Contin stolen from our facility last year. The culprit was actually a CNA. How she managed it was very simple, the nurses on charge simply left the cart open. The culprit was busted while attempting to sell the drug. She also stole expensive jewelry which she placed in a pawn shop. Money came up missing out of staff's purses, lunches were stolen, cordlessl phones, etc. Prior to getting busted, one night she came to me and asked me if she could get in the med room to see if her MDI had been placed there, for she had left it the day before. I went in to look for it and she followed and started opening draws, etc. I told her I would look but she needed to exit. She was furious. When I came out, and told her no MDI was in the room, she asked "Well, is there one on the cart that needs to be discarded that I can have." Needless to say I was shocked, and simply stated...."well even if there was I wouldn't do that!" She stomped off. That was a big red flag. :eek:

SmilingBluEyes · Dec 1, 2003

We have those old, antiquated narc sheets too. I just make sure a nurse is witnessing any changes I make to numbers (due to miscounts, etc) to cover my behind. Yep it's that important!

CCU NRS · Dec 1, 2003

I will just drop a line in here. I posted earlier about being the person to turn two people in for drug theft. I have read some of the posts about some of you being aware that a friend or associate or fellow employee is steeling or using or addicted and you don't know how to braoch the subject.

My advice would be do it now and do it clean and honest.

The two case in which I was involved I was working as an agency nurse and had no prior emotional involvemnet with the people I tunred in I did strictly for self preservation. Being an agency nurse onm a floor where narcs come up missing is very dangerous and hazardous to all concerned like the one person posted about everyone being suspec tthis is exactly the case and is to be avoided at all costs.

So again I say if you know someone with a problem it is better to help them now rahter than let it cointinue and possibly cost them much more when it does come out

Big Bab's · Dec 1, 2003

Wow, that gal went WAYYYY beyond!!.....Did they charge her??

Originally posted by nurse62
We had a large amount of MS Contin stolen from our facility last year. The culprit was actually a CNA. How she managed it was very simple, the nurses on charge simply left the cart open. The culprit was busted while attempting to sell the drug. She also stole expensive jewelry which she placed in a pawn shop. Money came up missing out of staff's purses, lunches were stolen, cordlessl phones, etc. Prior to getting busted, one night she came to me and asked me if she could get in the med room to see if her MDI had been placed there, for she had left it the day before. I went in to look for it and she followed and started opening draws, etc. I told her I would look but she needed to exit. She was furious. When I came out, and told her no MDI was in the room, she asked "Well, is there one on the cart that needs to be discarded that I can have." Needless to say I was shocked, and simply stated...."well even if there was I wouldn't do that!" She stomped off. That was a big red flag.

CCU NRS · Dec 2, 2003

I have read many of these posts and have seen many opinions in both directions and like anything else Mass Generalizations are BAD (reference Hitler, KKK) I would never say that addiction is a black and white issue I would also say that to those that have never had an addiction in their lives will power seems like the key phrase, however I will go a step further and advocate a physical and psychological component to addiction that can not be simply eroded by will power, adiction is a disease whether you become a crack head from your first hit on the pipe or have back surgery and for the first time in your life recieve narcs and become addicted.

I will also go out on a limb by saying IN MY OPINION there are people with a predisposition for addiction and others without this same whatever it may be genetic, chromosome, trait?

So I guess what I would like to say is if you are a Nurse and you are treating an addict you should treat them just as you would CHF, just because the CHF decided they didn't really need lasix and threw themself into a state of cardiac failure or insuffciency you would not tell this person that they are not really having a problem you just need to keep taking your medicine, so you should not tell an addict that they are not really having a problem and just stop using!

ps Sorry I have to throw this in there too, I just want to say Puhlease Diverting, I diverted the ms contin into my pocket for use at a later time by myself who it is not prescribed or for any reason other than a nursing profession have access to this drug, can you sayTHEFT

Lemonhead · Dec 2, 2003

Regarding the word "diversion"..it's kind of funny, I used to always say "theft", "stealing", etc...it's the BOARD that says "diversion"...all of their documentation, conversations, etc is a referral to "diversion"--hell, when I first heard it, I was like, "what"??? To me a "diversion" is just that--a "diversion" to distract attention---so, I know what it is--I just say "diversion" as I've had it said to me so many times--what's funny, is the Board is the first one to say.."don't minimalize your situation" but they are the ones to throw that "term" in there---

As for the disease vs. behaviour theory--I think that will ALWAYS be a heated topic. Personally, I can say, I will not use again--the consequences would not be worth going through this again...however, I don't DARE say that around a 12 step meeting or really around a counselor--because they all believe it's a lifelong, chronic, fatal illness--I don't believe that for me personally--It was my "behaviour", stupid choices and more stupid choices. It was a physical "gotta have my drugs" kind of thing..it was a "hey, nice buzz, nice nap..." yes, it got out of control, but when it stopped, it STOPPED ...and in 4 years, I'm not interested in ANYTHING even close---too much else in my life....HOWEVER---one of the other nurses in one of my groups---she's permanently lost her license after getting caught on the job for the 3rd time--she was taking uppers, downers, anything she could get a hold of...a really, truly sick person---even after spending time in prison, she was caught stealing from a counseling center and from my own home (she was my board mandated, 12 step "sponsor") If she was reported, she'll go to prison for 9 more years, but she cannot stop--the sad fact of that is, someone is missing the boat--if her treatment was individual and not the cookie cutter mode, maybe she'd get the right help...

So, yes, I agree with predispositions and different levels of the condition--I just don't like being lumped in with every single one of the other addicts, because there is no individual based treatment--and I don't mean that as a "pride" issue---My "condition" was not as bad as Nurse B's condition--she needed more help, more treatment and didn't get it--by the grace of God, I had a great family and alot of other support--I made it--but until the treatment community is forced to treat us as individuals, there's gonna be people falling through the cracks all of the time....It's like any other condition--there are differences in severity, risk factors and underlying conditions--if only nurses had the "luxury" of treating every single patient the same....

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 2, 2003

CCU NRS, I agree with you. I think there is a strong genetic component that leads to the behavior of addiction. One person takes a drink and he's fine. Another takes a drink and he's on the journey of alcholism. There are too many people all around the world who are addicts for me to think this is not true.

Lemonhead, I believe addiction/alchoholism is a chronic lifelong thing. You never stop being the addict/alcholic. 12-Step Programs preach abstinance while keeping the notion that once and alcoholic, always an alcholic/addict. I believe it to be a fatal illness. Addiction kills you, eventually it always does. (Of course, everyone can think of exceptions, the same one can come up with a 100 year old that smoked his entire life).

Lemonhead, do you identify yourself as an addict now? Or because you are sober, you don't. I can see why you don't. But I also see way Narcotics Anonymous people would say they are. In my opinion, your body doesn't change, your are still a drug addict.

THIS IS JUST AN OPINION. NOT TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND OR SHOVE ANYTHING DOWN YOUR THROAT Sorry for talking loudly just wanted to make sure you know I'm discussing not forcing my opinion. I definately agree with the one size fits all is wrong. I have a lot of problems with the 12-steps so I'm not trying to defend the 12-steps either.

If only our resources were properly prioritized in this society we could individualize treatment options. But that's another thread. :)

Lemonhead · Dec 3, 2003

Tweety, I understand what you're saying--but, again, it's all about individual treatment---unfortunately, our society is VERY biased on the "disease" theory "for all" who are labelled an addict--and even labeling one an "addict" because they "fit" into a certain, very vague, and broadly descriped mold is inappropriate. But, that is how society sees it, that is how the treatment community presents it and it is perpetuated by the 12 steps, as they are the largest and most often "used" groups by the courts, boards, etc.

No, I am not an addict. I abused drugs. For 9 months, I abused drugs. Prior to that, I was a rare social drinker, had smoked pot once in my teenage years, otherwise, no other drugs. In the past, I have taken pain pills following procedures without incident. So, basically, for the first 40 years of my life, I'm "cool" and then-out of the blue, I contract this lifelong, fatal mental disease? I bought in to the 12 step thinking, because basically, I was told by a state board caseworker, that if I didn't, I would die...I listened to that nonsence for a long time and convinced myself I had a lifelong, chronic, fatal disease, but for years, in the back of my mind, I knew it was not true. No more. Honestly, I am angry that I was forced to believe that --and very angry that thousands of people that DO NOT fit in to that category are forced to believe it as well and then consider themselves complete failures if it doesn't click.

I am not an addict. I abused drugs. I had a major behavioural flaw---completely self centered and ignorant...I had to learn, myself, how to get over that so that it won't happen again. I am not diseased for the rest of my life--my behaviour got me in to it, my behaviour got me out--and for my case, it truly IS that simple. I don't spend my days fretting the smell of alcohol, or worrying about being in my mother's house after her surgery with a bottle of Vicodin within reach--it is no longer of any interest, desire or need for me. If I were in the 12 steps, I would be labelled in denial and a "dry drunk". I would be told that I was a "relapse waiting to happen" and that my thinking and opinion was "my disease talking to me"...for me, this is totally unhealthy and destructive thinking. When I no longer have to pee in a cup, I will have no reservations about having an ice cold beer amongst friends at a dinner--I did it before, I'll do it again.

Now, I will say, yes, I believe some people have a predisposition and I believe some people have a lifelong, chronic and fatal condition....absolutely, I believe that--but, look at it this way--is it alcoholism or something underlying that's surface is NEVER touched--as in, someone with an underlying psych conditoin that is never diagnosed and never treated--do you know in treatment facility's the philosophy is, treat the alcoholism first, then worry about the other....the problem is, it takes years to treat alcoholism/addiction--so, the underlying condition continues, untreated and MANY often times, totally ignored....would that happen in the medical field? Isn't it crucial to treat and control the underlying condition first? So, I do not dispute the fact that some people are truly out of control and truly sick and do have true mental impairments that keep them from controlling the need to use...but I also think if these same people had complete and thorough mental exams, it would shed some light......Am I any better? No... But, I am different--

The treatment community MUST learn, or be forced, to do individualized "treatment plans" just as we do for patients..but it is not like that...

When I was in "treatment", there were 2 other men there--one, an alcoholic, 40+ years, that had the option of treatment or jail after beating his wife and children one night...through the course of treatment, he had talked of being sexually molested and abused by his alcoholic parents his entire life. His siblings were alcoholics, grandparents, great grandparent were alcoholics, etc.....He had been an alcoholic since the age of 13 and this was his first course of treatment. Were we the same? NO-- and like I said, I'm not better, but I am different--but, aren't we all? Rather than sitting in a room 8 hours a day for 2 weeks, listening to me talk about my kids, my decent upbringing, my decent spouse, my life of no abuse--( We HAD to talk...we went through "interviews" of sorts and had to disclose all of this personal info--mine incredibly boring compared to these guys )shouldn't this guy have been in some intense psych treatment---wasn't it a waste of his time to spend it with someone that had completely different issues and a completely different medical, psych and social situation...it would be like putting a CHF'r and a brain cancer pt. in the same room and expecting them to completely relate..it makes no sense and ethically, it's appalling and it's wrong.

I really don't want to come across as cocky or judgemental...I am NOT judging the folks that are clinically "worse" than I am--I feel sorry for them--like I've said, by the grace of God and an amazingly supportive family, I've made it through this--I know tomorrow I could get in a crazy mood, go off the deep end and do something stupid--but who couldn't? None of us are safe from mistakes and some of us have to keep our behaviour and attitude in check--but believe me, when you go through the consequences of the "bad" behaviours--it's definately a Pavlov's Dog reaction in the opposite direction--punishment definately worked for me--considering myself permanently diseased and fretting at the thought of a poppy seed bagel would have killed me---and it was, until I remembered who I "was" prior to all of this....

I hope that makes some sense and thanks for the interest, Lemon

Big Bab's · Dec 3, 2003

Lemonhead, I ran into similar things at rehab also, for one thing, I was sexually abused by my step-father, although I don't think it anything to do with my addiction, THEY thought so, but then the odd thing is I told the therapist about and said that it was something that I really wanted to "work on"," come to terms with it" while I was there....and do you know, it was NEVER discussed again, when I tried to bring it up the subject was quickly changed, strange, huh??........Also at treatment for the first few days there was a woman there who had the same "drug of choice" as me, Stadol.....Now keep in mind my situation at the time, I went to treatment voluntarily, had NEVER stolen meds, NEVER stole rx's, NEVER called in meds for myself, I ONLY took what the Dr rx'd for me, but just 2 wks before my "intervention" I was told that they would no longer give me meds, so I just went off of it, but was still trying to figure how to get more .....This lady was, well I think the best way to describe her is, me like a year down the road from where I was at if I hadn't quit, she was actually at the point where she was paying people to go see there dr's with ficticious injuries and conditions, and bring back rx's for her, she also stole rx pads and was trying to forge them, which is how she got caught......my point is she was desperate!! and had truly hit a very low bottom where she was willing to do anything to get the drug........while my "bottom" was much higher, and yet they wanted me to relate completely with her, in fact I was told over and over that "she was me", no difference.....granted had I not acknowledged the problem and not gone to treatment its very likely I could have been doing the same things within a few months........They said over and over that "I was holding back" and I "MUST have done some awful criminal things" or I woudln't have been there, I was really tempted to just make up some crap so they'd leave me alone!!.....Don't get me wrong!....this is a very nice lady who I actually keep contact with, but she was soooo sick and needed more help than people could have imagined!!.....but we are not one and the same....... As for the addiction label, I consider myself a recoverED addict, which is a HUGE no no in the 12 step world......But I do not believe that I am powerless, or diseased and I'm certainly not going to die from it.....as Lemonhead said, the price is to high and not one I'm willing to pay, its not worth it,

but that's me, my situation, my opinion.......Yeah the disease controversy is very hot right now, mainly because NOTHING has been proven either way....I agree that there is at the very least a behavioral, psychological, and physiological component to addiction...but the one I wonder about is the physiological one, is it genetic? possibly, is it triggered by environmental stresses? possibly....its just so up in the air......the biggest change that needs to be made at this point is to individualize treatment, at least until they have some sort of proof of something........These are just my opinions and you guys are right that we are all entitled to them, and I personally respect all the views posted here, this board still amazes me, I haven't seen open-mindedness and open discussion without "flame wars" like this on any other sites I've been on , and I've been to alot!.....again, thanks for talking AND listening!

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Dec 3, 2003

Okay, I'm sure I'm going to draw some fire here. I'm just sharing my opinion, it's not aimed at anyone in particular....

If you are taking things that are not yours, that is stealing. It is immoral and against the law.

If you are taking drugs in a manner contrary to what is prescribed by a physician, you are abusing drugs. This will impair your skills and it will make you less safe than if you were not doing so.

If you are less safe, you need not to be behind the wheel, and you need not to be taking care of persons who are vulnerable. That would be anyone who depends on you to provide any of their care.

Bottom line: if you are taking patients' drugs and/or using, you do not need to be working until that is not the case. If you are too impaired to take responsibility for yourself, your colleagues, as advocates for patients in general (including yours), should help you do so by making use of institutional policy and procedure.

Nobody's childhood was perfect, very few were even very good. Very few of us develop habits dangerous to ourselves and/or others. Those of us who do need to be doing something else until we are safe. Period. I want that for patients, whether it's me, my family, my friends, or you.

If you have issues that need dealing with, and don't want to use a 12 step program (which is about the best therapy going, if you "qualify" for it), then see a therapist. But to use it to justify dangerous, immoral, illegal behavior is a symptom of a DISEASE--it's progressive, and it's fatal.

Thanks for this thread.