Stealing drugs!! what's your opinion?????

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 3, 2003

Originally posted by LilgirlRN
One would think that given the right set of circumstances that anyone could become and addict. However, you see people who were abused as children and have incredibly hard lives and they never use. I think it would be more correct to say that given the right set of circumstances could make anyone abuse drugs. I believe it's all brain thing, all brain chemistry. I do believe that others were right in saying that there is a distinct difference in an addict and someone who abuses. I also believe that there are 2 kinds of addicts, social addicts and people who have psych problems who become addicts. I think social addicts get caught up in drinking/using with their friends and they have a physical addiction as well as one of loving being high with their friends. I don't know which one would be harder to stop. The one that uses for pleasure or the one who uses to escape pain. Some would argue that there is no difference in that statement, that they both use for the same thing, pleasure. I can see both sides of that argument. I believe that it's the human condition to be addicted to something. We all have something we are addicted to. I'm a Mountain Dew addict. Others are addicted to orderliness etc, etc.

I agree. I would venture to say that if I were to shoot up heroin I would become an addict. They say the body's response is so strong to drugs like that, that one just can hardly help it.

I'm definately addicted to coffee, can't live, can't function whatsoever without it. Get horrible headaches and a physical reaction without it. Sometimes, I drink it not because I want it, but to stop a headache.

It's all a very complicated. One size doesn't fit all. The process is different for everyone.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 3, 2003

One more thing and I'll hush. Babs was very telling in describing the addict she was in treatment with. That she was heading the same place as that person.

Whose to say that Lemonhead's abuse of drugs wasn't part of addiction that had she continued one day would have found she couldn't stop for two weeks at a time as she did when she stopped. Just thinking out loud. No one has to think as I do.

vwgirl · Dec 4, 2003

I guess that up front I need to say that yes, stealing drugs from work is WRONG. My former best friend lost her liscense for stealing Percocet from our job; then when it was time for her to try to reapply to get it back, she came to me and asked me to pretend to be her sponsor so she could act like she was doing what the BON wanted her to do. I told her that as much as I loved her and wanted to help her, my recovery was the most precious thing in my life, and I could not do anything that would f-ck with it. She has not spoken to me since. So, the disease thing....the way I learned to understand it is that once I came into the rooms of NA and learned that I have a disease, and learned that there are steps I can take and work I can do to recover, then I am very much indeed responsible for what happens to me from that point on. I know very few (if any) people in NA who will tell someone who relapsed, "Oh that's ok, your disease made you do it." That excuse holds water before you know any better. I alone am responsible for my recovery.

Big Bab's · Dec 4, 2003

Originally posted by 3rdShiftGuy
One more thing and I'll hush. Babs was very telling in describing the addict she was in treatment with. That she was heading the same place as that person.

I just wanted to clarify something about this statement (I keep forgetting that you don't know my whole history, sorry.)...The reason I first took Stadol nasal spray was because it was rx'd to me by an ER Dr....I suffer from awful IBS, at the time I didn't know that's what it was, Dr's diagosed a whole slew of things over a 5 to 6 year time before settling on "IBS", it was excrutiatingly painful at that time, anyway, I was given the rx and used it "correctly" for 2 or 3 years, no addiction or abuse of it....Now a time came about 3 years ago that My husband and I went thru a really awful time with our marriage, and if you should know anything about IBS its that it is SEVERELY aggravated by stress, so I began having more and more episodes and more painful ones.....during this period is when my "intervention" happened, I never used while working, I would tough it out till I got home and then take it and go to bed......there is a term for this that has not been mentioned here, psuedo-addiction syndrome......and THAT is what I had.....this is something that happens to people that have "chronic pain" issues and their pain is "under-treated", the person basically thinks (conscously or not) "well, if the Dr's aren't gonna help me, then I'll help myself.".....so I begin to self- medicate to "fix" myself, then a tolerance built up and on and on it goes.......In my case, I had the "mystery" illness that no one could figure out, and eventually Dr's just plain stopped tryin' to figure it out.....so I figured I had to find my own way to live with this pain that they couldn't/wouldn't help me fix....the rest is history......like I said before I quit using like 2 wks or so before the intervention, I was tryin' to figure out how to get more because I was TERRIFIED to NOT have it, fear of pain was a big factor in this for me.....and when the Dr's said they weren't gonna give me any more, inside I freaked!!....Oddly enough, while in rehab they sent me to a "chronic pain specialist" who helped me find some new NON-NARC meds to prevent episodes rather than waiting for it to happen and then needing narcs......as soon as we did that, my "addiction" went away, no cravings, no DT's no nothing....which a cardinal sign that it truly was a psuedo-addiction.....so, NO I don't think I was addicted to Stadol per say, I was addicted to NOT HAVING PAIN at any cost!....and I actually have had to have stadol one time since then, occasionally I have a "break thru episode" that can only be treated that way, and when they gave it to me it took my pain away and that's it, it didn't feel all fuzzy and warm, it didn't feel like a long lost friend and I didn't want or need anymore of after that......I didn't take it "recreationally", but I sure as heck jumped on it right away if I had any inkling that the pain was coming on.....

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 4, 2003

Babs, I'm sorry that happened. Untreated pain is so unnecessary.

Lemonhead · Dec 4, 2003

Lilgirl, I agree with what you said--it's so much more deep and complex than "is it a disease or not" and "addict is an addict is an addict" --there are so MANY issues that are totally ignored in the treatment field and THANK GOD that so many individuals "find" what they need to survive--

VW, I also understand what you are saying and again, it all boils down to what we believe in, as individuals, and what we know is best for us. But, you are also willing to say that there are other methods and why the 12 steps worked for you--I appreciate that.

I too had another nurse take advantage of me--it was the one I posted about earlier--she had been in "recovery" and actively involved in AA for several years, so everyone thought she'd be an ideal "sponsor" for me--as a nurse in recovery--well, things were going smoothly until she stole some meds from my home, practically in front of me, and returned later, broke in, not thinking I was there, to steal some more---can it get any more bizarre than that? I feel so sorry for her, but had to get her out of my life in a jiffy--she had already been to jail and prison for stealing meds on the job and from people's homes--but that is who my fellow 12 steppers and "therapists" thought would be best....so, there are DEFINATELY many sides to the issue---for her, I don't think anyone ever took care of her underlying problems--and 13 years later, she still struggles...it's really a sad situation, but one I had to distance myself from--it could have easily landed me in jail or worse--any meds in my home were counted weekly, sometimes daily, by a caseworker--and had she stole those meds without me aware, I would have taken the fall--what are friends for?? lol...but seriously, that is a sick person that needs help--and obviously, is not being pointed in the right direction. And the saddest part--I had to report her to the caseworker--she (the caseworker) in turn reported it to the Counseling Center where she(my sponsor) was employed as a receptionist-they did nothing--until several of their own sample meds were "missing"--they began to question the Center nurse--who, for obvious reasons, was freaking out--the caseworker stepped in, said "whoa, wait a minute"..is anyone considering this person? A brief investigation, realized it was her and not the staff nurse, and terminated her...end of story---they didn't ask her if she needed help, they didn't take it a step further--and THIS was a treatment facility! It's pretty scary that you can be screaming for help within the walls and still be ignored!

Lemonhead · Dec 4, 2003

Originally posted by 3rdShiftGuy
Lemonhead, I don't think people should live in fear. But don't you have just a little fear that you are going to be an idiot one day under stress or just being plain stupid and use again?

Hi Tweety--no, I don't fear becoming "that" idiot again--I'm still an idiot in other ways, believe me, but I have really learned how to channel aggravations, anger, frustrations, etc--Ironically though, I really was not under stress when I began using--it was a type of experiment, as crazy as that sounds--I worked nights, trouble sleeping from backaches and sore feet, etc...like I said, I had been given the med years earlier and remembered that calming, relaxing, go to sleep sensation---and thought I'd "give it a try"....it was stupid--and it felt so darn good that I just kept going, when I had the opportunity--as in, leftover meds that weren't being wasted and witnessed---would I have kept going had I not gotten caught...probably....because, I "was getting away with it..." I hope that makes some kind of sense because I'm not trying to minimalize my situation---I KNEW I was "getting away with it"...I was also willing to risk it because I had NO idea the consequences would be so severe--to me, that is a "behaviour" problem and pure immature stupidity--like a kid getting away with being obnoxious because they can--and once they are confronted and the hammer comes down in a big way, they stop and never go back. And I really need to clarify something that I had put in an earlier post--a pretty MAJOR typo---I said something to the effect that my body craved the drug--I meant to say I did NOT have that --I didn't have physical cravings...I was "lucky" I guess in that I took a med that did not have some of the physical qualities of say MS or Dilaudid--when I stopped, I had no physical withdrawal symptoms--thank God, because I've heard the horror stories of going through that and can't imagine....And I absolutely DO NOT believe anybody else that uses is an "idiot"...in my case and some other's that I've talked to, we were---but again, "one size does not fit all..."
As for stress---wow--if anyone can survive the stress of loosing a license and a profession, loosing a home, vehicles, almost loosing their children, teetering on the verge of divorce, dealing with a long dying process and the death of a parent, being diagnosed with cancer, caring for the second invalid parent, living on welfare, filing for bankruptcy, going to court, pleading guilty to a felony, spending some time in jail, being fingerprinted, mugshot and wearing a pretty orange jumpsuit, almost loosing a sister---let alone the trivial material things--shopping for school clothes at goodwill, not having the money to buy school pictures, pay for school events, etc, driving a 12 year old car that doesn't have latching doors and leaving a 4 bedroom home to live in a 2 bedroom basement apartment...and all of this within a 3 year period---I didn't use or drink--didn't consider it--when this stuff was and is going on, it's not something that really even comes up in my mind--I don't think there's been a time through any of this that I've said..."damn, I need a drink" or "I need something to help me sleep"....it just doesn't come up--there's too many other things to focus on...I'm the first to say, Never say never---of course I could "slip up" and fall in to the abyss--but ANY of us could--regardless of our history or background..we are all human.
And again, I HAVE to stress---I AM NO BETTER, JUST DIFFERENT--as we all are.
You guys--I'm sorry for these very long posts, but this thread has been AMAZING and it has been wonderful to share this, to agree to disagree and to hear so many different thoughts and opinions--wether I agree or not---it's been yet, another great "educational" opportunity.

Lemonhead · Dec 4, 2003

They said they have to do their own investigation and then the dea does one, or something like that. Exactly what kind of proof do they need??? If they thought one or more of us were impaired, would they not dismiss us immmediately?? [/b]

No, they wouldn't necessarily dismiss you immediately--I continued to work for about 7 days after they began investigating me--

As for proof--keep in mind, that using or not, stealing or not, there are still things that they can "prove" that can lead to some pretty big issues that I've talked about in other posts...as for you personally, just make certain that they show you any verification of an issue that they present..if they say your urine was positive, demand to see it. If they say you didn't document properly, demand to see it---there is no law to prevent them from presenting you with inaccurate information and for that matter, flat out lying through their teeth. If they don't have great evidence, this is exactly what they'll do to "catch the culprit"...it's wrong, but completely legal...If you didn't do anything wrong, stand your ground. If they have the DEA coming in, there might be something a little bigger going on that they aren't telling you about--sounds suspicious to me that they would call in the DEA for a transcription error-- I'd ask them what is really going on...and, that--the fact that they have called in the DEA in, is a clue to you and your coworkers that it is now time to talk to an attorney---even if you did nothing wrong--you really need to understand how big this can get--from a transcription error to violation of state law to federal law violations regarding the federal drug laws---(for instance, tampering with meds is now considered a federal violation)....and they can have NO evidence but get a "statement" from you and hang you....talk to an attorney--it will be well worth any money you have to fork over--

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 4, 2003

Lemonhead, thanks. I think I'm projecting myself a little onto you and I'm trying not to do that. And again, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Because if it were me under all that stress it would probably be fear keeping me sober, fear of not being able to get it together, of going to jail again, dui or whatever. Naturally that's no way to live and I'd like to think I'd get through it to some sort of peace, rather than live constantly in fear. But at first fear would probably be a driving force. (But then again, I found out in therapy for depression in the 80s, I'm pretty much a fear driven person, fear of rejection, fear of people, anger turned inward, etc. I'm better and more self aware now, but that's another story. :))

I'm not talking about you, but just generally speaking I don't think a lot of alcholics and addicts start using because of stressful situations. A lot drink to experiment, to have fun, peer pressure. I remember the first time I had a drink was basically very social, nothing to do with stress whatsoever. But again, I think different bodies respond differently to that drink. Same as people's taste buds taste chopped liver. Some people say yummy, some people say yuk.

There are many days I say "gosh I need a drink". LOL

Let me say again, what an awesome person you are! You've been through the fire, and have such self-awareness and confidence it's amazing. The odds and statistics are so dismall for drug abusers/addicts.

Lemonhead · Dec 4, 2003

Hey Tweety--I am really glad you are asking the questions and making the observations that you are. I REALLY appreciate your opinions and your insights--and I don't take things personally, and hope my posts don't sound that way--I look at all of this as an excellent opportunity to talk to other people, get educated and educate. I think in this "field" we really have to open our minds and understand why "we do the things we do..." as individuals. I'm glad your asking and I'm glad your sharing!

And oh yeah--I have definately lived in "fear"..I didn't want it to sound as I just stood tall through all of it--I didn't fear using/relapsing, but believe me, I had fear of "loss" bigtime! And I understand completely what you are saying in relation to the "fear" factor--I really am the same way when things are out of control---but, I guess I figured using sure wouldn't help it. Tweety, please don't feel like you have to clarify your statements to me--I think you and other's have been extremely understanding and if you didn't ask questions, you wouldn't know where we were coming from....geez, we have been crucified on some other sites and this has been about the most open minded and willing to at least try to understand the issues. It really means alot!

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 5, 2003

I've really enjoyed learning with this thread.

BTW, I asked a friend who is an addiction counseler with the impaired nurses program here in Florida. He said that someone sucessfully challenged in court (may have been settled out of court) the mandating of the 12 steps. Florida no longer requires a 12-step program, but requires mandatory attendance at some support group for addiction/alcoholics.

I guess some people have to bite the bullet and attend even though you fall through the cracks and aren't addicted.

The floor I left last year had a nurse who got a DUI, was evaluated and put in the program. He's so resentful and angry because he swears he doesn't have a problem. However, he's unwilling to stop drinking. To me not stopping drinking when your license is on the line shows there might be a problem.

There are other things that makes me wonder about him.

I guess what I'm saying is. Where does one draw the line between someone who is lying and minimizing and the person who truly isn't addicted?

My good friend the counseler related a story of someone who was busted for pot in a spot urine check. He did it very rarely he said. But for a year, he had to go through urine checks and meetings. But no one forced him to say he was an addict.

You know your background and story to be true. But should the state board of nursing take the chance that you might be lying and minimizing. Or should they be as harsh as they were instituting the same treatment they would an addict. I'm not sure where I stand on that.

Big Bab's · Dec 5, 2003

Boy Tweety!!...That is a tough question!!...I'm just not sure exactly how to tell the difference between "fibber and a truther", honestly, in the beginning well actually after my "intervention" I was truly convinced that I was an "addict" in the (12 step sense of the word)....and went thru rehab thinking that too...it wasn't until I got home and "went back to living my life" that things just didn't seem to "fit"....I kept waiting for the overwhelming "need" for my drug, it never came, I kept waiting to have to deal with my "triggers", it never happened, my first week back I had to give a patient an injection of stadol at work, nothin' happened!!...I'm standing there with it in my hand and waiting!!...NOTHIN' (this may sound dumb, but I was almost disappointed!, I mean most of rehab was planning for this MOMENT and how to "deal" with it!)...that was when I began to see that I just didn't "fit" and alot of the things I had learned just weren't "me"....I hope this makes sense!?!?....this is a hard feeling to explain!....I'm sure that there are people out there that do lie about it cuz they're just not ready to quit or for other reasons, but there are those too like me who just hadn't figured out yet, where they "fit" and what they need, unfortunately there may not be a way to tell the difference??.....but anyway, that was when I began to get on the net and I found soooo many people that were just like me and Lemonhead!!....before that I just really thought that I just wasn't doing the 12 steps "right", I really felt like a failure, and if anything was gonna drive me to use again it was gonna be that feeling of "failure" and oddly enough I've found alot of others that were in that same "place"....thankfully I found out then that, unlike what I'd been taught in AA/NA and rehab, I AM capable of making good decisions about myself and my life AND I AM trustworthy at my job and home (keep in mind, when I got out of rehab I didn't even trust me, and I didn't want anyone else to either, cuz then WHO'D be there to give me the tough love when I messed up!??!)..I also found that I'm NOT "powerless"!!!...this was the big one for me!!!.....cuz I REALLY believed all of these things about myself but ESPECIALLY the powerlessness part.....I felt truly defeated.

I agree that in the last 2 years of being on the net and on dozens of sites, this has been the MOST openminded and RATIONAL one I've seen, its nice to be accepted at face value instead of being told why everything we believe about ourselves is a lie or just plain wrong......Nothing breaks a persons spirit faster than hearing that over and over and over.....soo again I also say thank you!