Lemonhead

And by the way..."giving up the license" does not stop the process....the criminal justice system will continue in pursuing charges, the state board will still report to national data banks and your resume, despite years of a spotless record, will become mud. It's not as if "giving up the license" paves the way for a new life. It's only the beginning of a downward spiral.

Railroad, I'm glad you didn't cave to their "offers". It's only after admitting to something they didn't do, that a person realizes the catastrophic mistake they may have made. First of all, don't discuss this situation with ANYONE other than an attorney. Do NOT talk to former fellow employees or ANYONE else associated with this facility..just keep in mind, that anything you say can be used against you--and anything you say, as innocent as it may be, can be twisted as well. I would definately contact an attorney. The hospital may end the action right then and there, as some do. But some also see it as a possible liability and report you to the board. Get an attorney that can start some dialogue with the hospital and find out exactly what is going on. You should not be left hanging like this. And, if it's reported the Board, they may close the case after talking to your attorney, or they may feel the need to prove a point and take you on as the daily scapegoat. Look out for #1 right now and protect yourself and your reputation-- If this goes on, there are alot of actions that you can take to protect yourself and present a positive case..your attorney should be well versed in that. In the meantime, stick to your guns and protect yourself! Please keep us updated. Nurses need to hear more of these particular horror stories. There is one in Ohio right now that has waited almost 2 years for a board hearing to defend herself...nurses need to know this happens and how hard it can be to rebound from it. Thanks for sharing your story.

In theory, that's a great idea. However, in the state of Ohio, all of the casemanagers are in recovery, via the 12 steps themselves. And, they believe it's the "only way". There is no compromising with the Board. It has been attempted and has not ended well for those that pursued it. There are stories of retaliation and of nurses being terminated from programs for not "cooperating" with the mandates. When I expressed difficulty with the 12 step programs, I was labeled, as they typically do, in "denial". I was told that there would be a recommendation to the manager of the program that I be returned to an intense inpatient rehab course of a minimum of 3 months, until I could "accept" that I was no different than anyone else in the 12 step meetings and that these were the folks that would "keep me alive". (This was after 12 months of being "clean" despite the 12 step program.) Straight from the mouth of a master's trained registered nurse state board caseworker. And try to imagine what a judge would do if someone walked in and requested some other mode. It just does not work and is not that simple. I had a "sponsor" that actually came in to my home and stole meds right from under my nose. I reported it, nothing was done. When I told a state board employee about it, the comeback..."well, why do you leave drugs out"....The program is protected, the sponsors are protected and the 12 step process is protected, because the very core of these programs, the state board casemonitors see it as an infalliable program. And if there are "problems" or "issues" it can only be because the nurse involved is "in denial".

Say what??? You're talking sideways here. "It is a right, it isn't a right, it is a right"....well, you're wrong. A property right is a property right according to the US Constitution, regardless of what the property is. And a professional license IS indeed a property right and cannot be taken without due process. In the message that I posted earlier, it clearly stated that ONCE earned, as in completing nursing school, this license becomes a property right. You've insinuated that I'm suggesting that we can take a jaunt to the local Walmart and pick up our license and have protection. You also state that my "comparison to property rights is a good one", it is NOT a "comparison"...a professional license IS a property right, not "compared" to one... Can you back up your statements? I think you've thrown a bit of legal rhetoric out there to confuse the reader. Bottom line, a professional license IS a property right with all of the same protections as any other property right. And yes, I'm talking about the nursing license that I "earned" via nursing school and state board exams... I'd appreciate if you could show some documentation to back up your comments.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, many nurses--and the public in general, have no clue as to federal rulings, case law, Constitutional Rights, etc because they've not been in a position to HAVE to understand them. And when we ARE in that position--we are so intimidated, ashamed and vulnerable, we just "do what we gotta do" to get through the system. It took me 4 years to past the point of believing I was "getting what I deserved" and understanding that I/we were NOT being treated fairly. It's a shame because the flip side of that--you have folks that just "play the game" to make it and may never find the help that they truly need. That's why it's paramount, in my opinion, that as nurses we not only educate out patients, we educate ourselves and each other. There are too many nurses that just voluntary surrender their licenses because they don't understand the system and their own rights. Why should nurses be excluded from every other US citizen when it comes to rights? Why should we forfeit our property right and in some cases, our freedom, because we made the same mistake that a judge made, but because he has the legal knowledge to protect himself, he makes it...it's not right, REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE'VE DONE WRONG. There should absolutely be consequences..but equality is key--or should be anyhow....

And hence the reason that nursing is notoriously known as the profession that eats their young...

Hmmm, interesting. Why was it a "judgement" call, you ask? It was not a personal judgement call, it was a professional judgement call. They are NOT qualified to provide the mental health therapy that they do as sponsors. And anyone that says they are only there to "listen" is insane. These are the people that we are FORCED, yes, Art, FORCED to divulge some very personal info to..do you want a topless dancer, factory worker or even Donald Trump walking you through this stuff--if you've had a horribly traumatic life, you're gonna have these folks "counsel" you? I don't think so. And by the way, I AM a factory worker...and I am NOT qualified to "sponsor" AND provide therapy to the wife beater, the victim of childhood molestation and abuse, or the guy with enough anger problems to blow up a building..and this happens CONSTANTLY in AA. You guys are missing a real critical factor--these "meetings" are not just "support"..there is a huge mental process that you MUST work through, with an unqualified sponsor, in order to show "progress".....

In addition to the religious issues: http://pages.ivillage.com/aacrimecenter/aacrime/

How do you know it "works so well for so many people". What statistical studies are you gaining this information from? Propaganda? As for making this argument a way out of participation in a program, "being in denial" or "rationalization"..all I can say, is you folks are ignorant to facts. If you've done your "homework", you would find very poor statistics for the success rate of the 12 steps and high stats of relapse. You would also find countless other successful programs that are not offered by any state board for nurses--while physician's, pharmacists, etc in some states do have options. Are "we" looking for a way out? Am I in denial? Hardly. You have, as 12 steppers famously do, twisted the argument and turned it back on those of us that have been forced to participate in a religious cult. That's very typical, but very sad that a group of nurses--nurses!--would do this. Would you make this same comment to a patient that expressed difficulty with these groups? There are nurses that have stayed clean for years without 12 steps, and in some cases, despite the mind games of these groups. If you've not been there, you cannot understand. If you've been there and it has help you--good for you. But to deny there are some serious issues within the 4 walls of these groups that ARE NOT MONITORED IN ANY FASHION, you are ignorant. How can this group spout out "but we help so many" when it is an unmonitored, anonymous organization? That is an oxymoron to the highest point. There are COUNTLESS other issues with the forced participation in these programs in addition to the religious issues. Do you realize that these programs are used by the courts for just about anything deemed an "addiction"...as in sexual addictions, etc. Yes, a judge, and in some cases, some state nursing boards, have ORDERED a sexual predator to 12 step meetings...AA meetings! The same meetings that a 17 year old young lady may be forced by the court to attend, following a first time offense. If you want to argue that point, I will post several links to support it. These meetings that nurses are forced to, are not limited to drug or alcohol problems..the 12 steps tout itself as useful to ANY type of addiction and the courts and boards feed on that..therefore, you could be exposed to some very dangerous situations, again, IN AN UNMONITORED ENVIRONMENT. And all in the name of protecting a license. Another poster made a comment on "anonymity"...Although the meetings are supposed to be "anonymous"...hardly. There is no creed, signing in blood or any other way to enforce this. Therefore, we are FORCED to attend meetings and FORCED to participate--if we don't, a fellow 12 stepper is required to send a letter to the Board regarding our participation--if we don't participate, it's considered a relapse indicator, hence, we very well may NOT get our licenses back. So, we participate--only to be pointed out at the town grocery store, the county fair, etc by fellow 12 step members as the "nurse that did drugs". In addition, what some of you are failing to recognize, is not every nurse is there for committing a crime or even endangering the lives of patients. If the board does not "like" the fact that you take narcs for chronic pain conditions, regardless of the fact that you do not use them while on the job--you too could be forced in to a "program" to protect your license. There are nurses in these programs under false allegations--nurses that did not appropriately sign out narcs, accused of stealing them. These are just a few examples of those that did NOT endanger a patient or do anything illegal. For those that support the forced participation, I have a few questions. How safe are these meetings? Do they force religion? How successful are they? After you answer the questions, please back it up with statistics. And please, tell me how you know, for a fact, the answers when these thousands of meetings are not monitored, have a continually rotating and changing membership, do not keep attendance, and do not follow up with any participant on a long term basis. Who runs the meetings? Not a trained mental health professional. There may never be a trained mental health professional unless they happen to be in recovery themselves. These meetings are run purely by the "been there, done it" class and "this is the only thing that works" mindset. So, as NURSES, would you do this to any other patient with a "disease" or physical condition? Would you sit a schizophrenic in a room full of schizophrenics for "therapy" and "support"? Without a capable, mental health trained professional in attendance? Would you send a pregnant patient to have a c/section performed by a mother that had one previously? Without a professional in attendance to MONITOR and FACILITATE the process? If you would, you deserve a license far less than I do. Key point...THESE MEETINGS ARE NOT MONITORED BY ANY PROFESSIONAL. THESE MEETINGS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROFESSIONAL GUIDELINES. THESE MEETINGS ARE NOT GOVERNED BY ANY ENTITY AND DO NOT HAVE TO REPORT TO ANY AGENCY. And most importantly--it is NOT just for support..there is a "plan" of the 12 steps that the nurse MUST "work through" with another AA participant--and this process IS reported to the Board by the fellow AA member--wether he/she be a factory worker, topless dancer or maintenance man--is this who you would want to be forced to share you most intimate and damning "secrets" with? Sorry folks, but I'll take the professionally trained mental health professional that is bound to confidentiality laws and best knows how to guide me through a process....

Couple of things here: Yes, it is religious and has been ruled via Federal Courts as such. As for "optional"...what is your definition of "option"? My definition is exactly as it is.."option"..the option to maintain sobriety in whatever fashion works best for the individual. Why should the boards limit the "option" to one program and one program only? That is not an option, that is state supported religious coercion. A professional license IS infact a "right" and this information can be found in the Constitution. So, to say that we don't have a "right" to a license, unless we go to these "optional" meetings is false. This is the definition of religious: Main Entry: [1]re-li-gious Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&s Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio Date: 13th century 1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity And, please do not misunderstand that those nurses fighting this issue are all atheists..nothing could be farther from the truth. There are Christians, Jews, etc fighting this forced religion. This topic is of the utmost importance in this nursing forum--there are many nurses that DO lose licensure over these issues--because they cannot comply with the demands of meetings that conflict with personal, religious beliefs. These meetings are not, in any way,monitored and there is no way for any person to state unequivocally what does and does not happen in them. If a nurse can prove abstinence in another program or another method, that should be acceptable--and THAT defines "option".