Stealing drugs!! what's your opinion?????

beaker · Nov 19, 2003

People do stupid things like stealing narcs because they don't think they will be caught. No way, no how are THEY going toget caught. It has happened at both places that I have worked at in the last two years. One person got caught, the other, I am sure eventually will.

Lemonhead · Nov 19, 2003

I disagree---I KNEW I would get caught eventually--I was getting too obvious--I just had NO idea the consequences would be so severe--now THAT is what is stupid. I figured I would be reprimanded on the job, reported to the board and reprimanded by them---I had no idea I'd be terminated, lose my license and spend some time in a jail cell....--there just isn't a lot of logic when a person is doing this stuff--I would rationalize, deny, lie to myself..2 days before getting busted, I finally called an addiction hotline...too late, they were on to me, but what lead me to make that call, was because I knew someone was going to figure it out, but I couldn't stop. I would say that most people DO know they cannot do this for long without getting caught--they either are afraid to seek help, don't know where the resources are or just can't do it without intervention...I don't know of too many smug nurse diverters that did it "because they knew they could get away with it..." not the case with the other nurses I've talked to. Lemon

skybirdrising · Nov 21, 2003

Prosecution to the fullest extent with permanent ban on license is what I would highly recommend!!

Tweety, BSN, RN · Nov 21, 2003

Thanks for sharing your story Lemonhead. What is sad is that you could be that good nurse again, if given the chance. At least here in Florida they allow persons a chance to get well and stay clean.

I disagree with skybirdrising, the ban should be temporary and the person should be given a chance for medical/physch. treatment to see if he/she is safe to practice. A ban yes, but not a permanent one.

Lemonhead · Nov 21, 2003

Yep, that's what I used to say too---"hang em all"....as did most of the nurses that I've talked to in the same situation....so, I will only respond to you by saying, it's human to be judgemental, but when you go through an unbelievable humbling experience, you'll get it--until then, educate yourself because it could just as easily be you, your family or your best friend...never say never...I was not a heroine addicted crack whore when I fell in to this nightmare---and trust me, as you wish, I have had exactly done to me what you suggest........and I did not tamper, switch meds, deprive my patients of their meds---not that I'm glorifying what I did--it was wrong---but just as there are varying degrees of cancer, there are varying degrees of diverting and using--your "hang em all" attitude could hurt thousands of good, decent, human being nurses that have made a horrible decision and horrible mistake----are we now to be above that? And trust me, being evicted, losing children, homes, family, income and spending Thanksgiving in a Salvation Army for a hot meal is pretty strong punishment for a nurse that once "had it all...." Again, I'm not looking for pity--few of us in this situation are--we are already loaded with guilt and shame about the actions and the potential catastrophes that we could have caused, let alone the depression of the losses we encounter---to have a fellow nurse not have a clue is disappointing about the profession as a whole...but, prior to my experience, I was just as ignorant....never say never........

Lemonhead · Nov 21, 2003

Tweety, thanks for the support--and to the others with the kind words..thank you....

Most of the nurses that I know of, have lost priviledges for anywhere from 6 months to several years to permanent revocation, depending upon the state and the situation. It varies greatly from state to state--some states have completely confidential programs and other states pursue criminal charges and a nurse can land in prison with a first time offense---two nurses that have done the exact same action can have completely different consequences.

I want to stress, that there are also varying levels of "nurse users"...there are nurses placed in these categories that have been reported because a coworker thought they were abusing a personal med..not even involving theft or "on the job" use and then it goes all the way to the nurse diverting, using on the job and depriving patients of their pain meds, causing harm to a patient and stealing to sell on the streets....and just as our criminal justice system punishes by severity, etc, so should our boards--but that is not the way it happens. It can be a very unfair system--and I know some folks think that regardless, a nurse must be punished to the fullest extent but that is like a witch hunt.....some of these nurses have done nothing more than have, what another has judged as, too many refills on a pain med for chronic pain--or are "judged" to be taking "too much"....if other nurses truly knew what happened with each and every nurse in this situation, they would be shocked. You can look at the board discipline sites and see nurses that continue to work on "probation" that are testing positive for cocaine..on the same site, you can see a nurse with a permanent revocation because she can't account for wasted meds---if you can't account for wasted meds, you CAN be charged with theft--a felony--and in some states, you WILL loose your license....and if you cannot prove that you personally did not use those meds, you will be labeled a user.....wether you actually are or not....and each unaccounted for med, is one "count"...so, if you have 10 unverified wastages, you could easily have 10 felony counts of theft...you WILL go to prison......So, my point being--it's not cut and dry--so, for anyone to lump "using nurses" in one category is sadly misinformed and ignorant to the facts. The Boards lump us together, our peers shouldn't.....I was not a heroine addicted, crack whore when I fell in to this nightmare--I was a room mother, a good wife, a fun sister and the breadwinner of my family---I made a horrible mistake, but I will NEVER recover from it financially because the board will see to it that I am treated no different than a nurse that killed a patient...and there are nurses out there that truly did NOTHING wrong that are lumped in a category with me, who HAS admitted to a wrong, and are losing it all--so, it's an unfair, unjust system and all I can say is educate yourself, be cautious and never say never.....

Incidentally, another thing to keep in mind regarding self preservation---if you guys ever sign a wastage that you didn't actually witness--that is a crime and you can be punished criminally for that--so, be careful......

Thanks again for the kind words and support, Lemon

jschut, BSN, RN · Nov 21, 2003

Wow~ What as story Lemonhead...may God bless you and yours as you continue your struggle...

On the other hand, we continually have narcs come up missing, or off count. Liquid lortab replaced with water....now a whole sheet of Lortabs....hmmm....seems a bit convenient to me. And yes, there are narc sheets with one certain nurses sig on it for each night she worked for a certain pt who has Lortab, but never requests it on my shift or any one else's (yes, I have asked). I have said something about this, but what's being done?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!

Except the DON going on one of her crazed rampages and swearing she "will find whoever is taking these drugs!"

Whatever.

What we need are good professional nurses who actually pay attention to what they are doing and remember what nurses are supposed to be.

No, I don't agree with stealing drugs. It's very wrong, but until we work as professionally as we possibly can (and that means counting every shift change--no excuses) and reporting any lost pills or otherwise, I don't see whatelse we can do.

(My opinion is based on my experiences as a LTC nurse where 3/4 of the nurses do not count at all, and half the time drugs are missing and unaccounted for.)

Lemonhead · Nov 21, 2003

i Julielpn, I agree with what you have said completely. I know there were a few times that I suspected a nurse was stealing and I made a few remarks, but otherwise ignored it...as I think alot of nurses do. I think the biggest problem is, we are not taught in nursing school, the laws and the power that the nursing boards have--they basically function as a civil court in their hearings--complete with prosecuting attorneys and judges, evidence, witnesses, subpeopnas, etc.--and because it is "only" a "civil" hearing and not technically criminal (although it certainly functions that way) they are not mandated to "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt" that you've broken the law..they simply have to provide ample proof..and "ample" proof can be as simple as med without documented disposition...for instance, a waste that wasn't cosigned. In my case, I was also going to be charged with stealing another med because I had signed it out for a doctor and he did not document what HE did with it--because my name was on the form, it was my responsibility...Fortunately, on our unit, at that time, that was common practice and they would have had to charge the whole unit--which they could have....if you or your institution is ever investigated, they'll scan this stuff with a fine tooth comb....In addition, if there is a nurse stealing and it can't be proven exactly who is doing it, your entire shift could be pulled in, questioned, investigated and punished....it's a double edged sword, because they can "get" the user, but they can also "get" the other nurses for not being accountable for the missing narcotics.

My advice to you--be very careful..document EVERYTHING..if you complain to a manager, document it. If they do nothing, document it. And if you have a trusted friend that can cosign it, do it together. If the narcs are off, document it--as in a personal memo book...just something in case you need it in the future. By law, we are actually mandated to report any violation or even suspicions of violation of the nursing practice laws--and we are supposed to be protected from civil suits--defamation, etc. if the complaint is done in "good faith". It's a tough call and after going through the board nightmare, I would have a really tough time reporting someone directly to the board, but, it boils down to self preservation, and you're right, accountability as a profession. I think if nurses truly understand how easy it would be to get caught up in the web--even NOT using, they would be scared straight....

I have done a lot of research and I'm also noticing that the boards are cracking down even more--not just on nurses intentionally or knowingly breaking the law, but nurses that are just being "careless" with documentation errors, etc...I would suggest that everyone look at their state board laws and understand them completely--you'd be surprized at how easy it is for them to charge someone...and they can turn a violation of nursing law in to violation of criminal law...and for EVERYONE---if you are EVER questioned, if there's the slightest chance that you have done something that may be construed as a violation, DO NOT talk to ANYONE until you consult with an attorney--again, because it's a "civil" case, anything you say to ANYONE can and will be held against you--there is no such thing as a "miranda warning" in board investigations, even though the board "investigators" are considered law enforcement officials....--we have a tendency to be open and willing to "share", but basically, in doing that during ANY course of an investigation can absolutely be turned against you..even if you don't believe you've broken a single law...

Just be very careful!! and protect yourself and your license....

Katnip, RN · Nov 21, 2003

Lemonhead, my hat is off to you. Not just for the courage it took to post your story for all here to see, but also for the gracious and intelligent way you reply to detractors.

I truly wish you the best and hope things will work out for you in the future.

Kim44 · Nov 22, 2003

Lemonhead, your story was enlightening. I do believe that it could happen to anybody.

I worked with a nurse who is an addict. She got help on her own and returned to work. Over break, she told me everything. We work oncology and there are large amounts of narcs around. She would often not give the dose or give half doses. She would often volunteer to d/c PCA pumps when ordered and take the waste, replace it with saline. When setting up a new pump, she would take most of the dose from the bag and replace with saline. It was'nt uncommon for us to have concentrations of dilaudid at 50-100mg/ml. 1cc would last her a few days.

She told me that her favorite was an admission with a PCA pump from home. These patients would be switched over to our pumps on admission so whatever was left in the cartridge, she took. It didnt need to be documented anywhere.

She since relapsed, and wasnt able to steal anymore because we all knew her secrets now. She was terminated.

Lemonhead · Nov 22, 2003

Thanks again you guys for the kind words, it seems that most nurses are pretty supportive IF they are willing to hear the whole story, but like I've said, I used to just automatically think that any nurse that stole was horrible---didn't really consider that they were'nt a whole lot different than me...there are some horrible nurses out there--we've all heard of them, just like any profession, there's people in there for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual professional eithics, but I wasn't one of them and find myself having to prove that as to not be lumped in to the "horrible nurse category"..but, what goes around, comes around, and for all those years I judged--whew, it all came around to me....

And yes--there are SO many ways to get meds--no system is foolproof and the hospital is nothing more than a candy store for someone that wants drugs--a "free" candy store, at that...(not in the end, that's for sure)--our hospital was insanely easy--although we had PYXIS machines--it was so easy and the pharmacy obviously didn't track meds---we could sign meds out for doctors, nurse practioners, other floor nurses--nobody ever seemed to notice. In addition, when we signed meds out--it was usually too busy to get another nurse to cosign, so we'd sign out the full dose and never go back and waste or witness--in my unit, we only used partial doses, so THAT was heaven for a drug seeker--it would be like walking in to a room with half eaten bags of M&M's all over the place for a chocolate lover--lol--but seriously, at the end of the shift, someone would just go along and toss the wastes--no signatures, no verification of partial doses, nothing.....even the nurse managers did this if they worked the floor..soon after I was busted, I called my friends and told them to NEVER do that again--I told them to be very careful and follow the law to the "T" in regards to these narcs--amazingly, a year later, nothing had changed--this hospital will now soon be under a full scale investigation---almost 4 years after the fact--I can only imagine the number of discrepancies they'll find....I would say it will literally number in the hundreds.

As for nurses that relapse--I don't know--never say never, but....after all I've been through, the mere thought of taking a narc is literally nauseating--I had surgery and had to take Vicodin and it literally, for the first time in my life, made me sick--I have no desires, no cravings, nothing--it was a horrible mistake and the consequences have "scared me straight"....I would just say that the nurses the relapse don't get the help they need in the first place---and the "treatment industry" in my experience, is not good..(that's an understatement, too many stories on that topic, I'll leave it at that....)

Thanks again you guys for taking the time to read these posts and for being understanding about the topic--if nothing else, I just hope I can "educate" nurses to be cautious and understand their state laws...because once caught up in this system--it doesn't seem to ever end. Thanks again guys...

cantoo · Nov 22, 2003

Stealing drugs is, unfortunately, a bigger problem than most nurses realize. In the state of Florida there are upwards of 1500 nurses in the alternative program. Theses are only the ones that have been identified and mandated to participate in order to keep their licenses. There's many, many more who have been permanantly banned from nursing due to non-compliance and other issues. And, I might add, even more who are diverting but have yet to be caught. It happens everywhere.It's time for the health care field in general to take it's head out of the sand and acknlowledge that this is a wide-spread and complicated issue. Nation-wide guidelines need to be set and controls set in place to stop abuse by state-run programs just as Lemomhead has talked about. These "case-managers" that monitor nurses in recovery are often times no more than recovering addicts themselves. Many are not even nurses and have no idea what the stress is like. Like Lemomhead stated, never say never. It could happen to anyone and indeed it happened to me. I too was a good nurse, mom, wife, citizen. And then one day my 17 year old daughter was killed by a drunk driver. I went off the deep end. My first experience was with a perscribed lortab and before I knew it I was diverting. I used drugs to dull emotional pain. Was it right? No way! Have I learned from it? You bet. I now have almost three years clean and am back to working as a nurse. It can be done. And, in my opinion, I am now a better nurse for the experience. I no longer sit in judgement of others. For those of you who say that all nurses who have diverted should be permanently banned from nursing, I say walk a mile in my shoes. And to Lemonhead I say, YOU GO GIRL! It takes a lot of guts to own up to what you've done and you, my dear, have done that with grace and courage. I wonder how many of these posters have ever taken "just one"? How many would own up to it? If every nurse who ever took an "extra" or a wastage was permanently banned from nursing, they would have to close the hospitals. Nurse addicts are out there. It's real and it could happen to anyone. Thanks for letting me share.