I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Stanford rape trial and sentence on all nurses. I'm opening up the discussion as I feel it pertains to us in many ways. One as people who may have been victims or know others who have been victims of sexual violence and two as nurses that have taken care of others in this situation, whether directly in ER or a patient suffering from PTSD with other health problems as well.
I applaud the survivor's bravery and her impact statement that has gone public. I hope this will comfort other survivors, but even more I hope this will discourage rape in general. Campus rapes are common and rapes at frats are in the news frequently. Once again a college athlete got off with just a slap on the wrist, although I don't think he counted on all the negative publicity this case has garnered.
What disturbs me the most is the letters of the parents to the judge. The father's don't punish him for 20 minutes of action. Then the mother's letter, who by the way is a nurse for gynecological surgeries and in the past as a pediatric nurse, who had not one iota of empathy for the victim. Her letter simply astonished me. I can't believe as a woman, as a nurse, as a mother of a daughter she had no empathy for the victim! This troubles me the most! I imagine in her years as a nurse she must have taken care of a rape victim and her total lack of empathy for the victim disturbs me greatly!
there is such a culture of empowerment through victimhood...
Credibility just dropped to 0%.
Victim culture.
0%.
You said it doesn't count as rape unless it's violent. You're wrong. You think it's empowering to claim you are the victim of a sexual assault. There are no words for how wrong you are. If a person is too intoxicated to consent, it's rape. Merriam-Webster doesn't write the law.
Do you excuse every sort of crime as being not *really* a crime and blame the victim for not doing enough to prevent it? If someone steals your car, is it not really theft if you left the windows rolled down because it was a hot day? Is it not really theft if you parked in an area that's had previous break-ins? Is it not theft if the person who stole it is a friend you've let drive before? Is it not theft because the person who took it is a stranger who saw you letting a friend drive it? Is it not theft unless someone smashes the window, drags you out of the driver's seat, and throws you on the ground before driving off? Is theft too strong a word because you don't want to be the sort of person who admits they've had their car stolen? Do you think people report their car as stolen for empowerment? None of it makes sense.
Oh, dear - is this the reverse sexism thing with a different name?
I also don't think your example of the double standard is an accurate one, maybe someone with more legal knowledge can help, here. I do agree that the statutory rape laws do present a pretty sticky wicket in some cases. But that seems irrelevant to the Stanford crime.
I don't think you're alone in believing that consent given while extremely intoxicated is still valid consent. Of course, that would make the withdrawal of consent - changing her mind - valid, also. Again, not relevant to the subject of this thread if it's true that there was no consent given.
OT alert: Wasn't there a case recently where the judge ruled that having sex with an unconscious person is not rape? Oklahoma, I think.
OT alert: Wasn't there a case recently where the judge ruled that having sex with an unconscious person is not rape? Oklahoma, I think.
Curtis Lepore, a Vine celebrity apparently, raped his girlfriend while she was unconscious after a head injury. He claimed it wasn't rape because they'd previously had consensual sex, and pled down to a non-rape charge to avoid trial. That was California, and having sex with an unconscious person is rape by state law.
Like I said, I have a very different perspective...
It was a bad decision to put myself in that situation- I did get myself drunk/high of my own free will. The ability to give informed consent wasn't there.
I refuse to be forced into the victim box and be told it was rape.
Saying you were raped doesn't force you into a victim box at all. I refer to myself as a survivor.
But this attitude of "you made the choice to get drunk" is very much contributing to rape culture and the problem with consent. The idea that you (general) get drunk and therefore whatever happens is your fault is pretty dangerous territory. I mean, I was at a "friends" house, and I wasn't drinking and he pulled a gun on me. The argument could be made that I made the choice to enter his home, and therefore what happened was my fault. It wasn't.
This is a really good video about consent and why the distinctions are important.
You said it doesn't count as rape unless it's violent. You're wrong. You think it's empowering to claim you are the victim of a sexual assault. There are no words for how wrong you are. If a person is too intoxicated to consent, it's rape. Merriam-Webster doesn't write the law.
Do you excuse every sort of crime as being not *really* a crime and blame the victim for not doing enough to prevent it? If someone steals your car, is it not really theft if you left the windows rolled down because it was a hot day? Is it not really theft if you parked in an area that's had previous break-ins? Is it not theft if the person who stole it is a friend you've let drive before? Is it not theft because the person who took it is a stranger who saw you letting a friend drive it? Is it not theft unless someone smashes the window, drags you out of the driver's seat, and throws you on the ground before driving off? Is theft too strong a word because you don't want to be the sort of person who admits they've had their car stolen? Do you think people report their car as stolen for empowerment? None of it makes sense.
There is a sense of empowerment when you join others as a "victim" or a "survivor"... we change the language to empower. Cancer victim... cancer survivor... etc...
So using the car analogy-
-Would you say if I left my car running and the doors unlocked that I might not be surprised if someone "borrowed" it.
-What about a friend who had borrowed it before, and asked if they could borrow it. I was sleeping, so they took the car. I changed my mind and reported it stolen.
I am encouraged by my friend to report said car stolen... lots of terrible things always seem to happen to said friend. He tells me I am a victim and he will help me to never be taken advantage of again...
There are lots of ways to look at crime- seldom is it as black and white as people would like. This is why we have a criminal system with disparities beyond all other nations on the planet...
Now back to my comment about victim culture, I do not see how one can simultaneously claim that there is a rape culture that coexists with a misogynist culture... and not admit that there is some sort of counter-punch within the culture to combat the rape and misogyny....
Saying you were raped doesn't force you into a victim box at all. I refer to myself as a survivor.
But this attitude of "you made the choice to get drunk" is very much contributing to rape culture and the problem with consent. The idea that you (general) get drunk and therefore whatever happens is your fault is pretty dangerous territory. I mean, I was at a "friends" house, and I wasn't drinking and he pulled a gun on me. The argument could be made that I made the choice to enter his home, and therefore what happened was my fault. It wasn't.
This is a really good video about consent and why the distinctions are important.
There are distinctions- this whole thing with the tea consent is part of the equation is that both people are drunk on tea-
The victim in this Stanford case found out she was a victim in the newspaper.... then she fell into a serial of self deprecating victimhood in which she has to sleep with the light on... this is after she read about the account in the newspaper...
Yes, the person pulled a gun, but that is different than getting shot. In the tea case, or case of rape we are now saying that a person who says yes, but then cannot remember saying no said no.... and equating that with a person who is beaten by a stranger and is screaming no...
Oh good, it's been so long since I had someone mansplain surviving rape and assault to me.
Oh good- as per usual request is made for different perspectives- only one narrative is acceptable. Actually I am being "mansplained" to in the sense that all other posters seem to know more than I do about surviving and defining rape....
I do not feel empowered by having been raped. That's asinine.
But you use the term survivor, which is meant to empower yourself in the situation.
I empower myself in a different way, because I choose to interpret the circumstance I was in as under my control, and therefore I was able to do something to ensure I wasn't in a dubious position again.
I have been raped multiple times according to your definition.... since I have changed some things in my life I have not been raped...
I find it odd that because I choose not to call myself a survivor, or victim, or shift the blame to the other parties that my experience is dismissed....
There are distinctions- this whole thing with the tea consent is part of the equation is that both people are drunk on tea-
The victim in this Stanford case found out she was a victim in the newspaper.... then she fell into a serial of self deprecating victimhood in which she has to sleep with the light on... this is after she read about the account in the newspaper...
Yes, the person pulled a gun, but that is different than getting shot. In the tea case, or case of rape we are now saying that a person who says yes, but then cannot remember saying no said no.... and equating that with a person who is beaten by a stranger and is screaming no...
They are not exactly the same thing.
Yikes. I see the point you're trying to make, I just don't think I could possibly disagree more.
Being unconscious doesn't make you less of a victim - not remembering doesn't lessen what's happened to you. As someone who has been raped, her assault takes nothing from mine. It's her story and her experience and she's allowed to process/frame/feel whatever way she needs to.
I would hate to wake up and not know who did what to me. The thought is repulsive. Personally, I'd rather know my attacker than have it be some nameless, faceless entity. I don't think I'd be able to sleep, either.
But you use the term survivor, which is meant to empower yourself in the situation.
I empower myself in a different way, because I choose to interpret the circumstance I was in as under my control, and therefore I was able to do something to ensure I wasn't in a dubious position again.
I have been raped multiple times according to your definition.... since I have changed some things in my life I have not been raped...
I find it odd that because I choose not to call myself a survivor, or victim, or shift the blame to the other parties that my experience is dismissed....
I'm sorry - I didn't mean to make you feel dismissed at all.
I use the word survivor because I have to use something when having conversations like this (and I don't ever shy away from talking about my experience, because it's important to have these discussions) because I prefer it to what's available. People can use the word victim to describe me, that's okay. Being a victim doesn't make me less.
If you feel like your framework for your situation empowers you, then I won't argue it further. Take care of yourself. xo
NotAllWhoWandeRN, ASN, RN
791 Posts
Credibility just dropped to 0%.
0%.
You said it doesn't count as rape unless it's violent. You're wrong. You think it's empowering to claim you are the victim of a sexual assault. There are no words for how wrong you are. If a person is too intoxicated to consent, it's rape. Merriam-Webster doesn't write the law.
Do you excuse every sort of crime as being not *really* a crime and blame the victim for not doing enough to prevent it? If someone steals your car, is it not really theft if you left the windows rolled down because it was a hot day? Is it not really theft if you parked in an area that's had previous break-ins? Is it not theft if the person who stole it is a friend you've let drive before? Is it not theft because the person who took it is a stranger who saw you letting a friend drive it? Is it not theft unless someone smashes the window, drags you out of the driver's seat, and throws you on the ground before driving off? Is theft too strong a word because you don't want to be the sort of person who admits they've had their car stolen? Do you think people report their car as stolen for empowerment? None of it makes sense.