I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Stanford rape trial and sentence on all nurses. I'm opening up the discussion as I feel it pertains to us in many ways. One as people who may have been victims or know others who have been victims of sexual violence and two as nurses that have taken care of others in this situation, whether directly in ER or a patient suffering from PTSD with other health problems as well.
I applaud the survivor's bravery and her impact statement that has gone public. I hope this will comfort other survivors, but even more I hope this will discourage rape in general. Campus rapes are common and rapes at frats are in the news frequently. Once again a college athlete got off with just a slap on the wrist, although I don't think he counted on all the negative publicity this case has garnered.
What disturbs me the most is the letters of the parents to the judge. The father's don't punish him for 20 minutes of action. Then the mother's letter, who by the way is a nurse for gynecological surgeries and in the past as a pediatric nurse, who had not one iota of empathy for the victim. Her letter simply astonished me. I can't believe as a woman, as a nurse, as a mother of a daughter she had no empathy for the victim! This troubles me the most! I imagine in her years as a nurse she must have taken care of a rape victim and her total lack of empathy for the victim disturbs me greatly!
Are you serious? This is your solution? Tell women and girls to cover up and wait until marriage to have sex? How can you be that obtuse?
What would be wrong about women being modest? Circumspect? Sensible? Regulating their alcohol intake? Not getting rip roaring wasted with drugs or ETOH? Can people always have our cake and eat it, too?
It is a lie that people, especially women because of the biological facts of life, can have it all all the time, in every case. At least, that is my opinion.
There is much information about rape culture that I didn't think about before reading this thread, so thanks to those who shared this info.
I still think it would be wise for a woman to live more sedately.
Specializes in M/S, LTC, Corrections, PDN & drug rehab.
What would be wrong about women being modest? Circumspect? Sensible? Regulating their alcohol intake? Not getting rip roaring wasted with drugs or ETOH? Can people always have our cake and eat it, too?
It is a lie that people, especially women because of the biological facts of life, can have it all all the time, in every case. At least, that is my opinion.
There is much information about rape culture that I didn't think about before reading this thread, so thanks to those who shared this info.
I still think it would be wise for a woman to live more sedately.
Just women? So it's ok for men to live like animals but us women have to cover up & be angels? Double standard, don't you think?
What would be wrong about women being modest? Circumspect? Sensible? Regulating their alcohol intake? Not getting rip roaring wasted with drugs or ETOH? Can people always have our cake and eat it, too?
It is a lie that people, especially women because of the biological facts of life, can have it all all the time, in every case. At least, that is my opinion.
There is much information about rape culture that I didn't think about before reading this thread, so thanks to those who shared this info.
I still think it would be wise for a woman to live more sedately.
And as other posters have stated before me, if this is true, what then is your explanation for the high rate of rape in countries where women cover up almost completely?
I think you have your head in the sand and are part of the problem.
What would be wrong about women being modest? Circumspect? Sensible? Regulating their alcohol intake? Not getting rip roaring wasted with drugs or ETOH? Can people always have our cake and eat it, too?
It is a lie that people, especially women because of the biological facts of life, can have it all all the time, in every case. At least, that is my opinion.
There is much information about rape culture that I didn't think about before reading this thread, so thanks to those who shared this info.
I still think it would be wise for a woman to live more sedately.
Nothing at all wrong with living sedately. The part that's wrong is thinking that modest dress and a conservative moral code have any effect on women's vulnerability to rape.
As as other posters have already pointed out, revealing clothes don't matter. Women get raped wearing nuns' habits and hijabs and going veiled head to toe with nothing showing but eyes.
Even more important is that women do not deserve punishment of any kind, let alone rape, for having a different set of standards or moral code.
Specializes in Palliative, Onc, Med-Surg, Home Hospice.
What would be wrong about women being modest? Circumspect? Sensible? Regulating their alcohol intake? Not getting rip roaring wasted with drugs or ETOH? Can people always have our cake and eat it, too?
It is a lie that people, especially women because of the biological facts of life, can have it all all the time, in every case. At least, that is my opinion.
There is much information about rape culture that I didn't think about before reading this thread, so thanks to those who shared this info.
I still think it would be wise for a woman to live more sedately.
Do you know how hurtful your words are to a survivor? Can you not see that you are victim shaming/blaming here? Nuns, Amish women, Muslim women in burqas, modestly dressed women, from babies to little old ladies are raped every day. What are you going to tell them? That they should have lived a little more sedately?
Don't assume anything. Don't assume that being modest or sedate is going to make women safe. It didn't make me safe. Being told to be modest only made me question what I did wrong. Guess what, I did nothing wrong. The scum who raped me is the guilty party.
If you want to be modest and sedate, go for it. But stop telling women they need to follow some "formula" to make them safe. Because it doesn't work.
Specializes in Cath/EP lab, CCU, Cardiac stepdown.
I feel like there is an acceptable "personal experience" that is allowed to be shared, which is why I shared mine. If you support the narrative that has been set forth from this you are free to post it repeatedly to Facebook. If you have my narrative "Just don't project your own personal attitude"... I am not telling you to stop telling people its ok to be a victim, or traumatized. Why can't I tell people its ok if you aren't a victim (based on my own experience)?
As a gay man, and in the spirit of everyone being able to share their opinions, I am calling your statements a load of crap. You can call yourself not a victim/survivor , you can say you did it to yourself, but hey some might call that denial or rationalization.
What would be wrong about women being modest? Circumspect? Sensible? Regulating their alcohol intake? Not getting rip roaring wasted with drugs or ETOH? Can people always have our cake and eat it, too?
It is a lie that people, especially women because of the biological facts of life, can have it all all the time, in every case. At least, that is my opinion.
There is much information about rape culture that I didn't think about before reading this thread, so thanks to those who shared this info.
I still think it would be wise for a woman to live more sedately.
If you are saying women could prevent rape by living "sedately " you are saying men inherently have a desire to rape and that it's women's responsibility not to tempt them.
If you don't believe rape is the fault of the victim, but that everyone should live "sedately" because of your personal values, you should have said "everyone" (but you repeatedly chose to single out women) and kept it the bloody **** away from a discussion about rape, because it's wholly irrelevant.
Do you think the little Duggar girls and their friends caused their brother to assault them in their sleep? They weren't drinking, getting high, or dressing provocatively. Do you think that boy grew up to be a gross, unfaithful husband because his wife wasn't sedate enough?
Anyone who calls rape a "biological fact of life" doesn't really care what women think or say or do.
What would be wrong about women being modest? Circumspect? Sensible? Regulating their alcohol intake? Not getting rip roaring wasted with drugs or ETOH? Can people always have our cake and eat it, too?
It is a lie that people, especially women because of the biological facts of life, can have it all all the time, in every case. At least, that is my opinion.
There is much information about rape culture that I didn't think about before reading this thread, so thanks to those who shared this info.
I still think it would be wise for a woman to live more sedately.
OK. There is nothing wrong with dressing modestly. I'm pretty sure that this isn't the main focus of Korky's post. Modest women are also raped.
Not getting wasted with alcohol or other drugs is just common sense, and that goes for men and women. I would add that going to parties where people commonly get intoxicated is not a good idea.
Was the rapist guilty? Certainly! Did she ask for it? No!
Could this have been avoided if people didn't get drunk? Probably.
As a gay man, and in the spirit of everyone being able to share their opinions, I am calling your statements a load of crap. You can call yourself not a victim/survivor , you can say you did it to yourself, but hey some might call that denial or rationalization.
The thought that the response that 1sttime described could be denial or a way to attempt to rationalize what happened to him crossed my mind too. He said something that really made me think:
I empower myself in a different way, because I choose to interpret the circumstance I was in as under my control, and therefore I was able to do something to ensure I wasn't in a dubious situation again.
(my bold)
The thing is, noone is in control when they are asleep or passed out. The only thing that he was in control of were the events leading up to his falling asleep or passing out. So yes, to me this is either a coping strategy or he genuinely thinks that if a person, including himself, gets drunk or high of their own volition, then having people perform sexual acts without consent on his/their unconscious body, is just something that one should have expected and accept. If the latter is true then that's nota different perspective, but as I've mentioned earlier, it's simply blaming the victim. It's also in my opinion a rather sad "default assumption" to expect so little respect and decency from your fellow man. Not to mention that I personally consider anyone who actually finds a completely unresponsive sex partner even remotely arousing, pretty messed up and deviant. To me it's predatory behavior.
I don't know if 1sttime's experience and his inner dynamics around it are typical of male survivors or not.
(This quote is from heron. I can't seem to get the multi-quote thing to work).
Well, I don't either. I've only handled about half a dozen rape cases involving male victims. They were and did regard themselves as victims of crime and in all the cases the perpetrators were someone they knew. Either someone they'd known for a longer period of time/been in a relationship with or more casual acquaintances. However, if someone did reason along the same lines as 1sttime, they'd never report the crime in the first place. So it's difficult to know how common his way of dealing with it really is.
In the male victims of sex crimes I have met, I did observe the added dimension of shame stemming from I believe the traditional male role of being physically strong and in charge, and not having been able to defend themselves from the assaults. It's sad.
I think that it actually takes courage and strength to admit to vulnerability, for both men and women. Not just as it relates to crime, but in life in general.
About this whole modest clothing discussion. I wish that we could abolish it once and for all from the discussion of rape. It's a huge insult to all men to assume that they are biologically programmed to be rapists and that revealing or provocative clothing just sets the inevitable into motion. Please understand that identifying revealing clothing as a contributing factor to a rape is just an excuse that someone who was going to rape anyway uses to shift the blame and avoid responsibility for his actions.
If you for personal reasons wish to dress modestly, that's perfectly fine. Please just don't suggest or claim that it will function as a sexual assault deterrent.
Edited to add:
@1sttime. I realize that I have been "dissecting" your personal experiences in a rather impersonal and clinical tone. I apologize for that. I think that what makes me feel that it's okay to do so is because you, at least on the surface, present your experiences in what I perceive as a rather detached way. I don't wish to cause any emotional harm/pain and sincerely hope that I haven't. Another reason I have for speaking out is that I perceive that what you are suggesting, i.e. that voluntary alcohol and/or drug consumption makes a person lose the status of victim of a crime, is a harmful opinion that has the potential to cause emotional trauma to many survivors/victims of sex crimes.
I would add that going to parties where people commonly get intoxicated is not a good idea.
Was the rapist guilty? Certainly! Did she ask for it? No!
Could this have been avoided if people didn't get drunk? Probably.
But how do you propose we stop people from drinking? It's already illegal for those under 21 and that doesn't stop it. National prohibition didn't stop it.
I know I'm repeating this ad nauseum, but focusing on preventing rape by reducing an individual woman's vulnerability only protects the women lucky enough to be taught those tactics and fearful enough to enforce them every moment of their lives. There will ALWAYS be a drunk girl at a college party somewhere. If the Stanford rape victim didn't drink so much she may not have been assaulted, because the perpetrator would have been interested in whoever else was the most impaired. Attacks like the one at Stanford could be reduced with or without more temperance with alcohol, if we fixed the idea that nobody created that situation except the victim (for being drunk) and the perpetrator (for committing rape).
To reduce rape within situations where people WANT to drink, dance, and mingle (which happens well past college, or there wouldn't be bars), we need to create a social obligation to protect others who are potential targets and to shut down those we know are opportunistic rapists. I do not believe for a moment that no one at that party realized the victim was drunk beyond safety or consent.
This is why college students who are victims of sexual assault don't report it. Nothing happens and/or the actions are brushed under the rug. It's a very sad world we live in when those who are put in a position to protect victims only proceed in further victimization.
This is why college students who are victims of sexual assault don't report it. Nothing happens and/or the actions are brushed under the rug. It's a very sad world we live in when those who are put in a position to protect victims only proceed in further victimization.
And it's not just college. That mentality bleeds down to younger kids who are imitating (or sneaking into) the college party lifestyle. The Steubenville rape case only handed out verdicts 3 years ago. Multiple high school athletes sexually assaulted a drunk, unconscious underage girl in public and on camera. Unlike the Stanford case, the Steubenville assault was very, very public. No one who was there took action to stop the assault and the media still lamented the damaged futures of the unrepentant perpetrators. Alcohol didn't create that situation, rape culture did.
Kooky Korky, BSN, RN
5,216 Posts
What would be wrong about women being modest? Circumspect? Sensible? Regulating their alcohol intake? Not getting rip roaring wasted with drugs or ETOH? Can people always have our cake and eat it, too?
It is a lie that people, especially women because of the biological facts of life, can have it all all the time, in every case. At least, that is my opinion.
There is much information about rape culture that I didn't think about before reading this thread, so thanks to those who shared this info.
I still think it would be wise for a woman to live more sedately.