Should mean people be allowed to be mean at work?

FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN · Aug 17, 2016

You can make rules against personal attacks and it seems like that applies here. Unless the nurse is just razzing people and the OP doesn't understand razzing, or grew up some place where people don't do that. I'm saying this because shoes and hair (but especially shoes) are something that I would definitely consider razzing material.

If someone told me my shoes were ugly I would say, "Oh, you don't like my shoes? How sad for you. How do you live like that having to look at my shoes all day?" If the person laughed or smiled I would know they were razzing me. If they didn't, I would know they were making a weak attempt to insult me. Either way I would probably be amused because I am not sensitive about my shoes.

Hair is different. I think it would depend.

If the nurse is talking about other people's hair or shoes behind their back that is not razzing and is extremely juvenile. Why do they let 12 year olds become nurses in your state?

"Being mean" is subjective. Sometimes people think I am being mean when I am being direct, because they are not used to people being direct with them. But I am direct with people when I think they are confident and secure, so it is truly a sign of respect from me. If I think someone is not secure about the topic I need to speak about I will add validations and warm fuzzies to my communication and thus be a little less direct.

I like people to confront me when I have hurt their feelings. It gives me a chance to apologize if I was being impatient, or oblivious to their needs. That happens sometimes, because I am human, it doesn't make me a mean person.

Going to management should be reserved for true bullying (like 15 people against one), true violence and out of control situations.

jessimee · Aug 17, 2016

You can make rules against personal attacks and it seems like that applies here. Unless the nurse is just razzing people and the OP doesn't understand razzing, or grew up some place where people don't do that. I'm saying this because shoes and hair (but especially shoes) are something that I would definitely consider razzing material.
If someone told me my shoes were ugly I would say, "Oh, you don't like my shoes? How sad for you. How do you live like that having to look at my shoes all day?" If the person laughed or smiled I would know they were razzing me. If they didn't, I would know they were making a weak attempt to insult me. Either way I would probably be amused because I am not sensitive about my shoes.
Hair is different. I think it would depend.
If the nurse is talking about other people's hair or shoes behind their back that is not razzing and is extremely juvenile. Why do they let 12 year olds become nurses in your state?
"Being mean" is subjective. Sometimes people think I am being mean when I am being direct, because they are not used to people being direct with them. But I am direct with people when I think they are confident and secure, so it is truly a sign of respect from me. If I think someone is not secure about the topic I need to speak about I will add validations and warm fuzzies to my communication and thus be a little less direct.
I like people to confront me when I have hurt their feelings. It gives me a chance to apologize if I was being impatient, or oblivious to their needs. That happens sometimes, because I am human, it doesn't make me a mean person.
Going to management should be reserved for true bullying (like 15 people against one), true violence and out of control situations.

Thank you. With this particular individual, it is mostly behind people's backs. And it's constant. And yes, it's shoes and hair comments, but it's also complaints about their work habits, what they've done that is "totally stupid", how she can't believe someone was given that job, because she could do it so much better. Things that serve to make co-workers question the abilities of each other. Above the level of razzing, IMO.

jessimee · Aug 17, 2016

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses--I appreciate them all! My plan to deal with this is as follows--I will continue to not engage with her, acknowledge her frustration and move on. I will encourage anyone who approaches me with a concern (like the new nurse) that they might consider discussing it with our manager at their review, or sooner if they feel it's affecting their ability to safely care for their patients. I may make a general statement about wanting to maintain the good morale on the unit and how we can do that, in my upcoming 1year review.

Rocknurse, MSN, APRN, NP · Aug 17, 2016

I consider myself a tough cookie and I'm a veteran nurse, not a nervous newbie, and my first reaction to hearing about mean people at work used to be to snort and liken it to the Lindsay Lohan movie. Are we in grade school? I always thought that people could only get to you if you let them. That was until I started working with someone that made my life a living hell and turned my way of thinking around. I won't go into too many details here because there are many of them, but we're talking about someone so utterly manipulative and hellbent on destroying other people that I didn't even realize what was going on until I was in the middle of it. She was he11 bent on getting me fired, unbeknown to me, even though I kept myself to myself and just did my job. She did not actually work....no, her full time job was to flit from person to person and create a Walter Mitty-type fantasy life while simultaneously talking bad about someone else. She'd create drama wherever and however she could. Then she'd move on to the next person and talk about about the last person to them, only the stories she told about herself kept changing. One day she said her ex husband had died in a fiery crash and was a neurosurgeon, the next her daughter was working for the FBI, the day after that she pretended she had gotten a Master's in chemistry from an Ivy League school. Then she was an award winning marathon runner. Sounds ridiculous now but she fooled a great many people.

Over the course of two years I almost unraveled because she was so vindictive and relentless and I began to despair to the point I didn't know who to trust or which way was up. I cried every day I came home from work. I even started looking for a new job. I complained to HR but at the time I thought they were stalling and blocking me. Now I see that they were working on bigger things. She had created so much drama that eventually people started to talk and put two and two together. She was incredibly believable which made it so hard to detect, and extremely manipulative. One day she totally unraveled. We were on site at another hospital and actually having a very pleasant, quiet experience in a tiny hospital where nothing ever happens. For the first time everyone was together and could start to see how she operated. She couldn't get anyone alone, so she started to create drama amongst the clients and that's where it all started to go wrong for her. She was literally spinning in circles trying to cause some trouble where there was none. I'll never forget the sight of the director running across the parking lot to intervene and pull her away from a client. We thought she'd get fired that day but it took a bit longer.

By then everyone had started to share their experiences and the stories she had told and I finally felt vindicated. I was no longer alone. It was only when I started to talk to the lady who worked next to me and heard her confess how she got taken in and had sleepless nights that I realized the damage that was done. She must have realized that the walls were closing in because she found another job and my buddy and I literally did a jig in the middle of the department when we found out. However, she had burned so many bridges that she was walked out by security and her badge taken away when she handed in her notice. They were just waiting for their moment I guess.

Anyway, the point of this is, that my partner, who is a psychotherapist, explained to me that this woman actually had a personality disorder and was able to explain how her behavior reflected that which made it easier for me to come to terms with it all. I feel like I have PTSD from that experience. I will respond in very different ways to people now. I am changed forever. I will never let anyone get under my skin the way that woman did. You have no control over other people but you totally have control over how you react. I learned some valuable things about myself and I would handle it differently now.

JannyWilson · Aug 17, 2016

The only piece of advice I may suggest you is to ignore how other people behave. The more you think about it, more uncomfortable feelings it may bring. So, either you accept the situation or worry about it as much as you do now.

NursesRmofun, ASN, RN · Aug 17, 2016

I think that truly mean people should not be allowed to work anywhere....but I don't get my way on that and meet them all the time. You are lucky if you just have one!

quazar · Aug 17, 2016

I consider myself a tough cookie and I'm a veteran nurse, not a nervous newbie, and my first reaction to hearing about mean people at work used to be to snort and liken it to the Lindsay Lohan movie. Are we in grade school? I always thought that people could only get to you if you let them. That was until I started working with someone that made my life a living hell and turned my way of thinking around. I won't go into too many details here because there are many of them, but we're talking about someone so utterly manipulative and hellbent on destroying other people that I didn't even realize what was going on until I was in the middle of it. She was he11 bent on getting me fired, unbeknown to me, even though I kept myself to myself and just did my job. She did not actually work....no, her full time job was to flit from person to person and create a Walter Mitty-type fantasy life while simultaneously talking bad about someone else. She'd create drama wherever and however she could.

Without quoting the entire post here, I have to say that on a totally detached clinical analysis level this is morbidly fascinating to me. The pathology of this woman's disorder went so deep, it seems. Wow. I have worked with some seriously nasty people, but I don't think anyone that bad...yet.

To the OP, all I can tell you is the same thing I tell myself: you cannot change other people, you can only change how you react to them. No, this person shouldn't be able to get away with being a jerk at work. If she is permitted to is up to either the powers that be who can discipline or fire her, or to your unit as a whole to come together and force change upon her yourself. That takes a strong unit to do that, though.

Having worked with someone like that (several someones, in fact) in the past, I find that the best course of action, for me at least, is to just go on my merry way and not give a flip about them or their opinion of me. Let them be full of hate and spite, that's their problem. I will continue to be happy and enjoy the company of others around me. There is a new nurse I work with right now who seems to just plain hate me, and she doesn't even know me. She's just snotty and rude and gives me the stink eye any time I speak to her. Maybe she has resting b**** face, I don't know. I found myself starting to take her behavior personally, but was able to stop myself and remind myself that her behavior is not a reflection on me, but rather on her. If she is nasty and ugly and hateful, that's her problem. Not mine. I just ignore her now. *shrug*

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Aug 17, 2016

The "bigger issue" does not matter. Analyzing the the rationale for the behavior does not matter. That is enabling the behavior that interferes with the functioning of the unit.
That behavior needs to be STOPPED. Management needed to realize what is going on , step in and handle it. In the scenario that I presented, management was aware of the situation, and AFRAID of the crazy, mean, controlling nurse , that they put into a charge position.
When big boy corporate administration took over with their new rules of conduct.. crazy, mean, controlling nurse HAD to be dealt with by wimpy management.

Yep, it's all about the quality of the manager. I worked for the most amazing woman. We all respected her and wanted her to think well of us. She was fair, she fought for us when we needed her help, but she also expected much of us. She would NEVER have tolerated this kind of behavior. She wanted to see teamwork, and bullies are never about the team. They just wouldn't have lasted very long on our unit. When I read about these other spineless managers, or managers who are every bit as into the power trip or drama as their unit bullies, I thank my lucky stars to have had such a great experience.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Aug 17, 2016

I don't think that's possible. I just think that the, "She's allowed to be disrespectful to co-workers, because that's just how she is" is not right. She has made one of our CNAs cry, and made other nurses feel intimidated. I hate the term "bully", but that's how I would describe someone like this. We don't necessarily have to be nice to our co-workers all the time, but we should at least be respectful. Maybe I'm wrong on that though... My fear is that that attitude will spread (we have a lot of newbies), and I really value our non-toxic work place.

She didn't make the CNA cry -- the CNA cried at work. And the other nurses LET her intimidate them. If you really value your non-toxic workplace, try not to be toxic toward this one nurse that you don't like. You're going to find mean people everywhere, and you're not going to be able to force them to "be nice." You don't have to let them control how you feel, either though.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Aug 17, 2016

People who make others cry and terrorize their colleagues should not be allowed near other people till they change THEIR OWN "attitude" and learn what they were expected to master in kindergarten. In my opinion, such nurse is dangerous as health care worker, and has to be disciplined, up and including stripping her license.
The problem is that, saving for cases of physical harm done AND proven, their every and any action is legal.
Change in upper Powers' actions and attitudes, probably inflicted by low staff retention/new hires attrition (read: people running away from that monster in scrubs) can bring situation to literally screeching stop. Unfortunately, one, or even numerous workers' complains probably wouldn't do it.
My advise would be to get out of there, and as quickly as possible. Each of us has only one life, not worthy of fighting someone else's "attitude".

The OP likes her job and likes most of the people she works with, and you're advising her to leave because of ONE person she doesn't like? Chances are the next job will have several people she doesn't like. Or two mean people, one of whom will be her preceptor.

I decided long ago not to be forced out of a job I liked because of one person for whom I had no respect. If she's as mean as the OP says, she cannot be a very happy person. Karma will bite her in the end.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Aug 17, 2016

She might be a huge jerk, but some people people are hysterical by nature and cry at the drop of a hat. Some people are also easily intimidated. "Mean" is simply too vague to take action on, IMO. "Disrespectful" is another word that's wide open to interpenetration.
You've obviously been talking about her quite a bit as opposed to her. Some would consider that to be disrespectful, mean, toxic, etc.
Complaints about this person should probably focus on concrete, rule-breaking behavior as opposed to how she makes you "feel" ...and consider making them through proper channels instead of gossiping with your co-workers. If you're new, you really don't know who your friends are yet- and you don't want to find out the hard way.

Wish I could "like" this post a few more times.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Aug 17, 2016

Anyway, the point of this is, that my partner, who is a psychotherapist, explained to me that this woman actually had a personality disorder and was able to explain how her behavior reflected that which made it easier for me to come to terms with it all.

Just out of curiosity, which personality disorder did your partner feel this woman had?