School Shootings

[OldDude]

Yet another tragic loss of innocent life today in Santa Fe, Texas. Yet again! As a school nurse, and one who is close to your children and my children, every day during school, these senseless losses tear at my heart...and yet again, it happened today - again.

So here is the relevance of my post to "allnurses." Nurses are, probably, the most accomplished and innovative, critical thinking, problems solving, life saving, "git-er-done," people on the planet. It appears "the experts" have contributed only to reliving the definition of insanity in regard to school shooting; doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside looking in to find the golden key.

I am requesting your ideas, recommendations, suggestions, thoughts, etc., regarding what you think would prevent future school shootings; as you would a head to toe assessment, identification, and intervention of your patient, so to speak. Or from any other relationship you have to school age children.

I am requesting genuine input. Sarcasm and political attacks are not welcome. If you don't have a contribution you think would be helpful, please don't.

If this turns out how I'm hoping it will, I intend to print the entire thread and mail it to the Governor of Texas, Greg Abbott; opinions from nurses from around the world - how to stop the insanity of school shootings!

Thank you!

[DaveICURN]

This tragic and heart wrenching issue is fresh and burns the heart of us all.

We must first agree on some core principles if we are going to move forward in a productive manner.

1. No one, in this forum or any other rational discussion, thinks this was a good thing. NOT ONE PERSON. We all need to stop point the finger and demonizing one another when NO ONE wanted this to happen.

2. We all can recognize that we have an illegal gun issue. Seized, borrowed, stolen, etc. wrongfully obtained weapons are being bought and sold with little to no discrepancy as to the owner or purpose.

3. We need a root cause analysis for EACH occurrence. What are the motives, means, failing throughout the system that facilitated, or hindered, the outcome.

The following are my own personal thoughts on the matter.

4. What are we doing for/to the parents? WHAT WERE THEY DOING? How much involvement in their little murders affairs did they place themselves? "You can blame the parents!" Some may say. BS. Says I. It's the parents sole duty to bring up children to be DECENT HUMAN BEINGS. "But, we had no idea he was this way!" BS "We tried the best we knew how." BS "He was such a good boy." BS If there wasn't signs that something was off, then I'll eat my Litmann.

5. We need to promote self defense and constructive courses in schools. The idea of Zero Tolerance for bullying in schools is great. The application leaves a lot to be desired. Most often, its both the bully and the bullied who are punished when the bullied has finally had enough. If we were instead to allow boys to settle disputes in a manner, a la ThunderDome, We might see a general lessening of the wish to bully another student. Fantastical true, but the premise is sound. If you offer no recourse for the one who feels they are wronged, then resentment builds. This resentment can, and has, come out in the violence available to a child who feels it's not worth it anymore.

6. We need to stop letting children win everything. "Here we go," some may say "Another hard nosed, don't give the kids a metal supporter." Yes, you are correct. We not teaching our children to face loss and rejection with their heads held high anymore. Some have already made the mention of the, World owe me for breathing, mentality. This I think is not far from the truth. When we fail to allow the child to learn rejection and frustration of loss at a young age, then they have no coping mechanisms later in life. Even as far as the girl who shunned them is now the prime target for retribution in the murderers eyes.

I feel, as you may have gleaned, that the problem is not going to be solved on a macro scale. We need to combat this on the micro scale. If we all take responsibility to raise our kids/grandkids to be the decent human beings that we all want to be in the world.

[OldDude]

This tragic and heart wrenching issue is fresh and burns the heart of us all.

We must first agree on some core principles if we are going to move forward in a productive manner.

1. No one, in this forum or any other rational discussion, thinks this was a good thing. NOT ONE PERSON. We all need to stop point the finger and demonizing one another when NO ONE wanted this to happen.

2. We all can recognize that we have an illegal gun issue. Seized, borrowed, stolen, etc. wrongfully obtained weapons are being bought and sold with little to no discrepancy as to the owner or purpose.

3. We need a root cause analysis for EACH occurrence. What are the motives, means, failing throughout the system that facilitated, or hindered, the outcome.

The following are my own personal thoughts on the matter.

4. What are we doing for/to the parents? WHAT WERE THEY DOING? How much involvement in their little murders affairs did they place themselves? "You can blame the parents!" Some may say. BS. Says I. It's the parents sole duty to bring up children to be DECENT HUMAN BEINGS. "But, we had no idea he was this way!" BS "We tried the best we knew how." BS "He was such a good boy." BS If there wasn't signs that something was off, then I'll eat my Litmann.

5. We need to promote self defense and constructive courses in schools. The idea of Zero Tolerance for bullying in schools is great. The application leaves a lot to be desired. Most often, its both the bully and the bullied who are punished when the bullied has finally had enough. If we were instead to allow boys to settle disputes in a manner, a la ThunderDome, We might see a general lessening of the wish to bully another student. Fantastical true, but the premise is sound. If you offer no recourse for the one who feels they are wronged, then resentment builds. This resentment can, and has, come out in the violence available to a child who feels it's not worth it anymore.

6. We need to stop letting children win everything. "Here we go," some may say "Another hard nosed, don't give the kids a metal supporter." Yes, you are correct. We not teaching our children to face loss and rejection with their heads held high anymore. Some have already made the mention of the, World owe me for breathing, mentality. This I think is not far from the truth. When we fail to allow the child to learn rejection and frustration of loss at a young age, then they have no coping mechanisms later in life. Even as far as the girl who shunned them is now the prime target for retribution in the murderers eyes.

I feel, as you may have gleaned, that the problem is not going to be solved on a macro scale. We need to combat this on the micro scale. If we all take responsibility to raise our kids/grandkids to be the decent human beings that we all want to be in the world.

Thank you. This took me back to my school days where fights were settled in the gym, with the combatants wearing 16 oz boxing gloves under coach supervision. I recall some mutual friendships arose from those "settlements."

[broughden]

More good information, thank you!

It wasnt "good" information. And the poster is mixing wounded with fatalities to make the number of causalities look higher.

1999- Wasn't a "massacre", which would lead one to believe it was some civilian victim incident. It was a bunch of criminals (Hell's Angels bikers) shooting each other. Only 3 died.

2002- Luckily since the assailant didnt have access to an AR-15 he was instead forced to carry five handguns. As soon as his first gun was empty (just 8 shots) the students tackled him and ended the incident. So again correlative information that banning AR style rifles with 30 round magazines can be effective in lowering the number of casualties. Only 2 died.

2011- Again not a "massacre". 3 deaths. Mentally ill assailant. The assailant stole the weapon from his father, a licensed owner. The father was CHARGED (unlike in the US) with improperly storing the firearm, and 5 additional charges.

2014- Again not a "massacre". One mentally ill father killed himself and his family. Again showing correlation (which is backed by evidence) that guns in homes are far likelier to hurt you or your family, than to defend them.

2104- Three deaths in Sydney. Used a 50 year old shotgun.

2018- Murder-suicide. 7 deaths.

1. NO law prevents ALL crime. Murder is illegal in the US but it doesnt stop murders from happening. Should we use that excuse to remove murder from the criminal code?

2. Compare the number of deaths and shooting in the Australia, to the number of deaths and shootings in the US during this same time frame....and then try and claim Australia's gun control hasnt been HIGHLY effective. Does it stop ALL crime? No. But nothing ever will.

[SummitRN, BSN, RN]

*A bunch of nit picking*

I went with the FBI definition of a mass shooting of 4 or more people killed or injured.

You can engage in special pleading to try and twist data... you don't want to count incidents that involved families, criminals, illegally acquired weapons, old weapons... the "mentally ill"... OK... what do you want to count? Only mass shootings at schools? Only one of those ever happened in Australia and it was in 2002!

Let's apply your dismissals to the other incidents:

The 1996 Tasmanian shooter who spawned the draconian gun control was "mentally ill," so were many US mass shooters from Sandyhook to Aurora to Columbine to Virginia Tech to Santa Fe. But what do we mean by "mentally ill?" ASPD? Psychopathy? Involuntary commitment? Seeing a mental health provider? Do you get to dismiss mass killings in areas with strict gun control as being due to "mental illness" but then argue it is not a relevant factor in areas with less gun control?

Many of the US shooters either illegally acquired their weapons (too many to list) or SHOULD have been prohibited from owning weapons under existing law save for some systems failure such as a school hiding violence from legal system (Parkland), or military or state governments not reporting violence or involuntary commitments to the feds (Texas church shooter, Virginia tech shooter).

1. NO law prevents ALL crime. Murder is illegal in the US but it doesnt stop murders from happening. Should we use that excuse to remove murder from the criminal code?

Do you know what a strawman argument is?

2. Compare the number of deaths and shooting in the Australia, to the number of deaths and shootings in the US during this same time frame....and then try and claim Australia's gun control hasnt been HIGHLY effective.

Please reconsider your research class learnings with respect to what you actually want to measure, attempting to project an uncontrolled prospective intervention in one population to another population, etc. You cannot reasonably make the claims you are making! You cannot compare Australia to the US in that manner as they are different demographics/cultures plus the US is very heterogeneous laws between states and urban v rural. You should look at Australian total violent crime / homicide and gun specific over various timeframes before and after accounting for contributing factors and independent trends. If you do that honestly and don't cherry pick, you see that it is difficult to conclude any significant benefit to the violent crime/homicide rate over time for Australia.

[broughden]

Presenting a full and complete picture of what actually happened, how many were actually killed, who were involved in the incident, and then presenting that information in the proper manner (as compared to labeling everything a "massacre") isnt nitpicking.

Its how professionals engaged in public policy and research based practices actually write.

You should look at Australian total violent crime / homicide and gun specific over various timeframes before and after accounting for contributing factors and independent trends. If you do that honestly and don't cherry pick, you see that it is difficult to conclude any significant benefit to the violent crime/homicide rate over time for Australia.

No actually it isnt all that hard if you passed a stats class and know what "per capita" means.

You can easily compare the amount of violent crime and homicides pre and post ban in Australia and then compare those rates with US per capita rates.

Australia's murder rate falls to record low of one person per 1, | Australia news | The Guardian

In fact even though their population is increasing their firearm homicide rate keeps decreasing.

Gun Control in Australia, Updated - FactCheck.org

[Tenebrae, BSN, RN]

Australian Mass Shootings since 1996:

1999 Adelaide Massacre 10 casualties

2002 Monash University 7 casualties

2011 Hectorville Massacre 6 casualties

2014 Lockhart Massacre 5 casualties

2014 Sydney Hostage Crisis 4 casualties

2018 Osmington Shootings 7 casualtie

Mass shootings in America

2018: 133 shootings almost 200 dead

2017:427 shootings, over 500 dead

2016: 477 shootings and 580 dead

2015: 371 shootings and 480 dead

from here

You are correct, the statistic speak for itself. Gun control reduces the number of mass shootings.

Free and easy access to guns leads to statistics as seen above.

[Medic_Murse, BSN, RN, EMT-P]

Thank you. This took me back to my school days where fights were settled in the gym, with the combatants wearing 16 oz boxing gloves under coach supervision. I recall some mutual friendships arose from those "settlements."

You'll never see this in this day in age. Had my fair share of gym locker room brawls (what happened in the locker room stayed in the locker room). Some friends made, others just established boundaries and mutual respect.

A lot of the issue is today's society. Everyone is offended and everyone's feelings get hurt. Now, I'm not saying all 20 somethings are like this, but I have worked with a few that were new grads. I remember one that ran out of a room crying because the patient called them a "white trash POS". Myself and another co-worker walked up to her and asked, what was wrong? She said, "I've never had anyone be mean like that before!" I had to walk away at that point.

[NurseBlaq]

You'll never see this in this day in age. Had my fair share of gym locker room brawls (what happened in the locker room stayed in the locker room). Some friends made, others just established boundaries and mutual respect.

A lot of the issue is today's society. Everyone is offended and everyone's feelings get hurt. Now, I'm not saying all 20 somethings are like this, but I have worked with a few that were new grads. I remember one that ran out of a room crying because the patient called them a "white trash POS". Myself and another co-worker walked up to her and asked, what was wrong? She said, "I've never had anyone be mean like that before!" I had to walk away at that point.

I blame this on the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. Plus I also blame social media where everyone needs attention all the time. Facebook has created far too many narcissists. This "look at me" attitude in society is ridiculous! But I digress, you have parents and grandparents vying for attention as well. It's all bad.

[Medic_Murse, BSN, RN, EMT-P]

Mass shootings in America

2018: 133 shootings almost 200 dead

2017:427 shootings, over 500 dead

2016: 477 shootings and 580 dead

2015: 371 shootings and 480 dead

from here

You are correct, the statistic speak for itself. Gun control reduces the number of mass shootings.

Free and easy access to guns leads to statistics as seen above.

Subjective Data. Depending on where you get it from, this website states it's much less...

I don't like using the dead as an arguing point, but both sides are spitting in the wind. An article from the NPR states that data pretty much doesn't mean crap.

The FBI found 160 "active shooter incidents" from 2000 through 2013, an average of a little more than 11 per year.

The Congressional Research Service counted 296 episodes of "mass murder with firearms" during the same period, an average of 21 per year.

And to add one more wrinkle, in the aftermath of the 2012 killings at the Sandy Hook Elementary School (26 dead), Congress lowered the threshold for a mass shooting from four deaths to three.

[Libby1987]

Looking at this from a nurse's interventional mindset..

1) stop the hemorrhaging first with the quickest means available that doesn't involve lengthy so far futile legislative negotiation: metal detectors and security in all schools immediately (expensive but doable)

2) then diagnose and treat the condition from a multi faceted approach: indentify and agree on the primary problem and contributing factors and work to change our culture towards gun management, bullying and mental health.

3) following culture change, work out the details

While horrified at the murder of children our culture as it exists today no more wants to end mass shootings in our schools any more than reducing the millions of unwanted dogs and cats out of not wanting to give up an inch to our current lifestyles. That's why we need metal detectors and security slapped in place while we continue to wrestle with compromise and sacrifice for the better good.

[Daisy4RN]

Immediately stop all "gun free zones", you are just making those places sitting ducks.

Use school funds for metal detectors instead of putting it in admin pockets or other wasteful expenditures, prioritize the funds.

Better ID of bullies with appropriate punishment/intervention of bully only (no punishment for the one who was bullied)

Check facts and have a plan prior to protests (merely protesting stopping school shootings will not stop school shootings)

I believe in upholding the 2nd amendment while at the same time having appropriate gun (owning) controls, we need to be able to have an adult conversation about where this ends up without screaming at each other.

Know and understand the facts, do your own research instead of just listening to news people or politicians, they are bias

Get back to teaching our kids how to deal with life, the ups/downs etc, stop with the everyone gets a ribbon mentality, kids don't learn that way, guns have been around a long long time and this has not happened until (relatively) recently, its not the guns, its the people/society that has changed

And, most importantly we need to hold those who commit crimes accountable, stop with the stupid defenses, no excuses, you commit crimes, you pay. And don't blame parents unless there is very clear cut evidence that they were somehow also actively involved, this will not stop any shooter (anyone who could commit such a heinous crime will not care that their parents will be sent to jail etc)

I am so sorry to those who have been personally hurt by these crimes and hope we, as a country, can come together to try to stop these evil people.

Thank-you OLD DUDE for opening this very important discussion!

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

It should be as easy as that. But it's not. My FIL throws out, "it's my second amendment right, damn it!" every time the issue of gun control is brought up. To me, it's a foolish argument. Something adopted in 1791 in response to resistance from oppression versus all this death and destruction today ...

We need discussion and change for gun control which we clearly haven't seen from our officials - this thread will be enlightening, I hope, as I am so very clearly broken-hearted and pessimistic at this point. And so afraid for my kids.

The next time someone starts with the 2nd amendment script: even Anton Scalia, who claimed to KNOW what were the original intents of constitution creators, remarked that the 2nd amendment does not confirm total freedom of weapons and that regulation is necessary.