School Nurse Abandonment over Pledge?

[E Non Imus, RN]

Unfortunately, I don't know any school nurses to ask about this occurrence, but I wanted the opinion of fellow nurses. We won't know the full details of what happened until after the investigation.

From:

Atheist group says nurse refused Carlisle student over Pledge of Allegiance

"

the Wilson Middle School student was in the nurse's office with others who were ordered to stand when the Pledge [of Allegiance] was recited April 2. When the student refused to stand, she claims the nurse refused to treat her."

And:

Atheists slam school nurse for refusing to treat student who won’t stand for Pledge of Allegiance

"'Why didn't you stand for the Pledge?' the nurse reportedly asked loudly. The student said that she explained that she had the right not to participate.

'Fine! Then leave! I have the right to not service you!' the student said the nurse shouted in reply.

'The student reports that she left the nurse's office in tears and went to the administrative offices to call her mother,' Miller wrote. A secretary then led the student to an office, but at that time the same nurse appeared again, saying, ‘She isn't calling a parent until I have a long conversation with her!''"

With the recent push in the U.S. for professionals to be able to refuse service based on personal belief, what does everyone think about nurses being able to have this same right that many people want afforded to florists, pastry chefs, and pizza restaurants? Why should it be different?

What about when it comes to children? I don't care for the Pledge of Allegiance and won't be teaching it to my son, but is it enough in determining whether I'm going to provide service to have a belief in whether something is patriotic enough? Does it have to be something religious?

[Jolie, BSN]

I am very skeptical of this story and will remain so until we have much more information. The article alleges that the nurse said, "Fine...I have the right not to service you!"

Has anyone on this site ever uttered those words, or heard another nurse do so?

I seriously doubt this account accurately portrays the exchange, if any, that actually took place between the student and the nurse.

Most schools that recite the Pledge on a regular basis either do so at the start of the school day or at the end. Either way, most kids occupying the nurse's office at those times are kids who do not need to be there. What was the "service" that was supposedly denied the kid? My guess is nothing the least bit essential. So she went without a Band-Aid? If so, it may have been for her disrespect of the nurse, rather than anything having to do with the Pledge.

I've kicked mouthy kids out of my office when doing so in no way impaired their health or well-being. Who knows what BS story they told their parents?

[Farawyn]

Hey, I had a fainter, a fractured ankle, a cutter, 3 nosebleeds and a puker- AS WELL AS all those Band Aids- all before noon today.

I just can't see a school nurse saying that to a kid. Over anything.

If it's true, the nurse is toast, and should be.

If it's embellished, then I would love to hear The Real Story.

[OCNRN63, RN]

I would hazard a guess that this nurse is unfamiliar with Minersville School District v. Gobitis, a Supreme Court case that ultimately ruled that students have a First Amendment right to refuse to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance. While this case dealt with Jehovah's Witnesses, this protection extends to any student.

History regarding the case:

The Supreme Court . Law, Power & Personality . Famous Dissents . Minersville School District v. Gobitis (1940) | PBS

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

And if the office is filled with pukers, cutters, bleeders, headachers, and an anaphylaxis reaction or 2, all at the start of the school day (as this is "classically" when the pledge is announced) I would turn off the loud speaker in the clinic area. And take down the flag that is an infection control risk. One's patriotic sign of allegiance is not necessarily needed to be on display with strict adherence in the nurse's clinical area.

If a child has parents who, for whatever reason, have taught their children that the pledge is not something they want them participating in, then it is what it is. Until such time as the child can make a decision for themselves as to what they would like to participate in as far as allegiance pledging.

Nurses, on the other hand, have ethical duties related to their licenses. In public schools, there is a cornucopia of beliefs and customs. The nurse's area should be a place of neutral territory. Where the focus is on the kids medical needs, and not the need for the nurse to decline care based on a child's/child's family's beliefs or non-beliefs.

Unless said nurse signed off on and was given the opportunity to not treat patients who go against the nurse's personal agenda/beliefs. (Much like in acute care, declining to care for patients who are being transfused, pre/post abortion care, and the like based on a nurse's own belief systems). In that instance, there needs to be a plan "B". And that would be that if the nurse has a written contract that unless the students all stand for the pledge, she will institute alternate care (ie: calling an ambulance for transport to local ED). Which I am not sure how many schools would be thrilled to have all sorts of stipulations regarding the nurse caring for the kids, however, I suppose it is possible....

In any other setting, this would be patient abandonment. If the story is accurate, it again speaks to a nurse's ethical duty to act. And I can only imagine what the mother had to say about all of this, and the kid--who I am sure was just as ill trying to walk down the hall to put a call into her mother....

[Conqueror+, BSN, RN]

I call BS. I believe that "poor innocent child" had more than a few choice words for the nurse before they were booted from the office. Children know that teachers/nurses etc.. no longer hold any authority over them. If they even try it the child screams abuse/bullying/lawsuit.

[Guest219794]

For the sake of discussion, lets assume the story is accurately depicted:

The nurse was inappropriate. Going from inappropriate to abandonment is a hell of a stretch.

Even if the nurse did refuse to deal with the child was there negative outcome?

Lets's say a patient in the ER says "hey b****- change this ****ing bandaid, it is soaked." I might go in and say "I came in to work today to help people, not be abused. If you want something from me, you will need to ask in a civil manner."

That is very different from not putting pressure on an arterial bleed because the patient has a swastika tattoo.

In both cases I am refusing to treat because I am offended.

[Farawyn]

For the sake of discussion, lets assume the story is accurately depicted:

The nurse was inappropriate. Going from inappropriate to abandonment is a hell of a stretch.

Even if the nurse did refuse to deal with the child was there negative outcome?

Lets's say a patient in the ER says "hey b****- change this ****ing bandaid, it is soaked." I might go in and say "I came in to work today to help people, not be abused. If you want something from me, you will need to ask in a civil manner."

That is very different from not putting pressure on an arterial bleed because the patient has a swastika tattoo.

In both cases I am refusing to treat because I am offended.

Would you not put pressure on an arterial bleed because of a swastika tattoo?

[Emergent, RN]

I think the nurse in question needs a lesson in what the constitution is all about. I don't think it mandates citizens to worship the flag and recite a pledge. It does protect freedom of belief though.

That nurse is entitled to her beliefs. If she thinks the child is not a patriot, that's fine. Providing nursing care to a child not reciting the pledge is NOT equivalent to being forced to participate in an abortion, however.

I think the state board of nursing needs to review this case and possibly discipline the nurse in question.

[RNsRWe, ASN, RN]

I am very skeptical of this story and will remain so until we have much more information. The article alleges that the nurse said, "Fine...I have the right not to service you!"

Has anyone on this site ever uttered those words, or heard another nurse do so?

I seriously doubt this account accurately portrays the exchange, if any, that actually took place between the student and the nurse.

I was thinking this very thing, as I wrote my initial response. When I read the quote "then I have the right to not service you" (emphasis mine) I immediately thought "there's no way an actual nurse says she won't "service" someone. Not talking about whether or not she provided a service or treatment, but that phrase just struck me as wrong.

And if THAT phrase wasn't reported correctly....what was REALLY said? And the rest of the story becomes just as suspect.

It reads like something a child with an active imagination and an axe to grind with the school nurse might think up. And tell her parents to avoid whatever trouble she might ACTUALLY be in for mouthing off to the nurse! The best defense is a good offense.....right?

[NutmeggeRN, BSN]

I would like to hear the whole story......

[NanaPoo]

How would the school nurse even know if a child refuses to say the pledge?

When our kids say the pledge, they are in the classroom and I am in my clinic.

And, besides, I do my best to stay out of disciplinary issues. It is absolutely not my business if a kid is out of line in the classroom and does something considered wrong. I'm just here to treat medical issues. I only get into disciplinary issues that occur in my clinic and that is pretty rare.

And, yes, I believe this nurse was out of line assuming this is an accurate portrayal of how it really went down. But the story sounds really fishy.

[Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN]

Assuming this is accurate--

It's one thing to refuse to take a job requiring one to participate in a religious ceremony that violates one's religious beliefs. I'm a Christian who makes special occasion cakes on the side. Nobody is entitled to one of my cakes. I won't do cakes with a "spooky" theme. If someone is having a Halloween-themed wedding and embracing the spooky aspects of Halloween, I'm perfectly willing to do one decorated with fall flowers and fall foliage, but not with the haunted house type things. If the couple want haunted house type things, they are free to find a baker who will make it. But they can't compel me to dedicate hours of my life to make something I don't want to (if it's a made-from-scratch cake with multiple tiers and a lot of elaborate gum paste decorations, I can easily spend 20 hours on one.) Now the way things are going, I don't have time for a lawsuit either, so I'd probably just say I'm prior committed for that weekend; my goal is not to get in their face about why I don't want to make a spooky cake. My goal in this case is simply to not make a spooky cake.

It's a whole other thing to refuse to do a job you were already hired to do--esp. an essential job like nursing (vs. a cake or flowers that are generally booked months in advance, with the choice to go elsewhere if the vendor can't meet the client's needs.) This nurse's main job is to provide nursing care to the students attending her school. There is no excuse for this behavior.

One of my instructors back in nursing school advised us that if we have specific convictions, then we'd best not work in those areas. Pro-life? Don't work for Planned Parenthood. Problems "pulling the plug"? Don't work in the ICU. Against emergency contraception? Don't work in the ED where it's offered to rape victims. A school nurse should be aware that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is a common thing in schools, and that not everyone is comfortable pledging allegiance to the flag. She should be prepared to accept those convictions or not take a job where it will be an issue.