School Nurse Abandonment over Pledge?

Nurses General Nursing

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  1. Should nurses be able to refuse service based on personal belief?

    • 4
      Yes
    • 0
      Yes, but not when treating children
    • 1
      Yes, but only for religious beliefs
    • 48
      No, it is morally wrong to refuse service to anyone
    • 10
      No, it is wrong, but only for those in the critical (such as medical) professions.

63 members have participated

Unfortunately, I don't know any school nurses to ask about this occurrence, but I wanted the opinion of fellow nurses. We won't know the full details of what happened until after the investigation.

From:

Atheist group says nurse refused Carlisle student over Pledge of Allegiance

"
the Wilson Middle School student was in the nurse's office with others who were ordered to stand when the Pledge [of Allegiance] was recited April 2. When the student refused to stand, she claims the nurse refused to treat her."

And:

Atheists slam school nurse for refusing to treat student who won’t stand for Pledge of Allegiance

"'Why didn't you stand for the Pledge?' the nurse reportedly asked loudly. The student said that she explained that she had the right not to participate.

'Fine! Then leave! I have the right to not service you!' the student said the nurse shouted in reply.

'The student reports that she left the nurse's office in tears and went to the administrative offices to call her mother,' Miller wrote. A secretary then led the student to an office, but at that time the same nurse appeared again, saying, ‘She isn't calling a parent until I have a long conversation with her!''"

With the recent push in the U.S. for professionals to be able to refuse service based on personal belief, what does everyone think about nurses being able to have this same right that many people want afforded to florists, pastry chefs, and pizza restaurants? Why should it be different?

What about when it comes to children? I don't care for the Pledge of Allegiance and won't be teaching it to my son, but is it enough in determining whether I'm going to provide service to have a belief in whether something is patriotic enough? Does it have to be something religious?

Specializes in Reproductive & Public Health.
very slippery slope. We have a problem here where PUBLIC (remember separation of church and state) officials are refusing to perform LEGAL marriages of gay couples here in NC. They should immediately be taken out of office.

My PCP was educated at a Catholic University and could not remove an IUD b/c they did not train them in that. I respect that, but to not treat a child for the pledge-that is a lawsuit waiting to happen. What if the child was having an anaphalactic reaction? Is she going to let the kid die? She should lose her license.

Totally off topic- but your PCP can't remove an IUD? Do they do any well woman care at all? Removing an IUD just requires a speculum and some ring forceps; any clinician with a reasonable familiarity with the female reproductive system could remove one. The training consists of someone telling you "Insert and open the speculum, then grasp the strings to remove. Examine the IUD to make sure it is intact after you remove it." Hell, you can take it out yourself if you can reach your strings! Was it more that they didn't feel comfortable setting you up with a different method after you took out the iud?

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No, it's because Catholics don't support birth control.

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...Now the way things are going, I don't have time for a lawsuit either, so I'd probably just say I'm prior committed for that weekend; my goal is not to get in their face about why I don't want to make a spooky cake. My goal in this case is simply to not make a spooky cake.

I agree with you that you cannot be forced to make something you don't want to make, but I wonder about the practicality of telling someone you're not available to make their cake only once you find out they want a ghost/witch thing? I mean, thinking like a good litigious American, lol, if I called someone who bakes cakes and asked "I'm getting married on the weekend of May 12th, would you be available to make a cake for us?".....and you said yes, and it was only when I told you what I wanted that you became suddenly unavailable, well....I think I'd figure out pretty quickly you just didn't want to make MY cake. And maybe I'm one of those people who run to the "I'm a minority, she heard it in my accent, so now she is discriminating against me". Seems risky.

Wouldn't it be safer to say "oh, sorry, I've never gotten the hang of ghost/witches/houses so I avoid making those now. How about something with a Fall theme instead?"

Just thinking here ... :)

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How would the school nurse even know if a child refuses to say the pledge?

When our kids say the pledge, they are in the classroom and I am in my clinic.

The story says the child was in her office (clinic?) at the time, and she was ordered out.

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I agree with you that you cannot be forced to make something you don't want to make, but I wonder about the practicality of telling someone you're not available to make their cake only once you find out they want a ghost/witch thing? I mean, thinking like a good litigious American, lol, if I called someone who bakes cakes and asked "I'm getting married on the weekend of May 12th, would you be available to make a cake for us?".....and you said yes, and it was only when I told you what I wanted that you became suddenly unavailable, well....I think I'd figure out pretty quickly you just didn't want to make MY cake. And maybe I'm one of those people who run to the "I'm a minority, she heard it in my accent, so now she is discriminating against me". Seems risky.

Wouldn't it be safer to say "oh, sorry, I've never gotten the hang of ghost/witches/houses so I avoid making those now. How about something with a Fall theme instead?"

Just thinking here ... :)

I'm pretty sure that a baker is not legally obligated to make Halloween spooky cakes if s/he chooses not to. It's probably legal for the baker to post a sign in the store stating that s/he does not make Halloween themed spooky cakes. Of course, if one did the same regarding race, sex, gender or religion, one would run into legal trouble. But 'spooky cakes' is not a protected class, lol.

I don't see an issue with a baker refusing to make a spooky cake and telling the client just that. The client will move on and find someone that can do the job.

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Would you not put pressure on an arterial bleed because of a swastika tattoo?

Of course I would.

My point is proportionality.

Some here are saying that if guilty, this nurse should lose her job or license.

How about if she expresses an understanding of her obligations, and apologizes?

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I'm pretty sure that a baker is not legally obligated to make Halloween spooky cakes if s/he chooses not to. It's probably legal for the baker to post a sign in the store stating that s/he does not make Halloween themed spooky cakes. Of course, if one did the same regarding race, sex, gender or religion, one would run into legal trouble. But 'spooky cakes' is not a protected class, lol.

I don't see an issue with a baker refusing to make a spooky cake and telling the client just that. The client will move on and find someone that can do the job.

I know a baker is not legally obligated to make a specific cake (can you imagine??) and I said that. My point was that she was concerned about repercussions for TELLING someone why she wouldn't make a specific cake, and I was just thinking that rather than say "I'm not available that weekend" (which can bite you in the butt if you've JUST SAID you're available) that maybe "it's really not my best work" in which case no one can argue in the least. Who wants a bad cake, LOL?

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No, it's because Catholics don't support birth control.

Which is an excellent reason for them to teach how to REMOVE one, dontcha think? ;)

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Which is an excellent reason for them to teach how to REMOVE one, dontcha think? ;)

Touche!

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Of course I would.

My point is proportionality.

Some here are saying that if guilty, this nurse should lose her job or license.

How about if she expresses an understanding of her obligations, and apologizes?

In a normal world, that would happen. She's a school nurse. She will probably get fired AND sued.

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Specializes in SICU, trauma, neuro.

Good point. :)

I agree with you that you cannot be forced to make something you don't want to make, but I wonder about the practicality of telling someone you're not available to make their cake only once you find out they want a ghost/witch thing? I mean, thinking like a good litigious American, lol, if I called someone who bakes cakes and asked "I'm getting married on the weekend of May 12th, would you be available to make a cake for us?".....and you said yes, and it was only when I told you what I wanted that you became suddenly unavailable, well....I think I'd figure out pretty quickly you just didn't want to make MY cake. And maybe I'm one of those people who run to the "I'm a minority, she heard it in my accent, so now she is discriminating against me". Seems risky.

Wouldn't it be safer to say "oh, sorry, I've never gotten the hang of ghost/witches/houses so I avoid making those now. How about something with a Fall theme instead?"

Just thinking here ... :)

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For the sake of discussion, lets assume the story is accurately depicted:

The nurse was inappropriate. Going from inappropriate to abandonment is a hell of a stretch.

Even if the nurse did refuse to deal with the child was there negative outcome?

Lets's say a patient in the ER says "hey b****- change this ****ing bandaid, it is soaked." I might go in and say "I came in to work today to help people, not be abused. If you want something from me, you will need to ask in a civil manner."

That is very different from not putting pressure on an arterial bleed because the patient has a swastika tattoo.

In both cases I am refusing to treat because I am offended.

She ordered the child out of her office. Declined to treat the child. That is not such a far stretch for abandonment.

And refusing to treat because you are offended is not part of a nurse's ethical duty to act. Yes, you can ask another nurse to care for said patient. Yes if the patient were to turn violent, then by all means, security and keep yourself safe.

But a nurse who works at a pubic school, (which I would find it highly unlikely this is the first time she has become suddenly aware of the fact that there are a variety of children from diverse backrounds, all of them may or may not conform), has an ethical duty to treat children trusted in her care. Regardless of how "offensive" she finds them. I am sure she is not without resources--and if a child is acting out, there are other professionals besides the nurse.

Again, this is about a nurse declining to care for a child for no other reason than said child not standing to say the Pledge. And orders said child out of her office. Would be akin to an ER or acute care nurse declining to care for a patient over the patient's unwillingness to say have pork on their dinner tray.....In the whole scheme of things, SERIOUSLY?!

And if the child is a behavioral nightmare, then that child needs help. And there are far too many kids who are NOT behavioral risks who are not getting what they need from the education system, never mind the children who need some services/plans in place.

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