Ramadan

Christy1019, ASN, RN · May 2, 2019

I live near one of the largest Muslim communities in the country so Ramadan is something that we tend to be very familiar with in this area. However, I wasn't sure which age they begin fasting so I just asked one of the Muslim nurses I am working with tonight and she said verbatim "When they have matured enough to fully understand why they are fasting. We would never make a 5yr old fast because 'God wants them to', they would perceive it as something bad, so it is different for every child." She also said that in her child's school (primarily Muslim students) they are having problems with younger children claiming to be fasting so that they can skip lunch and go out for recess and then end up not feeling well. She agreed with what was already said about people who are ill, women who are pregnant, menstruating, or breastfeeding, and those with extremes of age can be exempt from fasting.

Feral.Cat.Herder, RN · May 2, 2019

17 hours ago, kidzcare said:
We always have. Good Friday and Easter Monday. No school and the district office closes.

The schools have Good Friday off only. District office, in which I work (I only sub and train in the schools) do not get Good Friday off. I guess they city doesn't think Christians work at Central Office. ?

JenTheSchoolRN, BSN, RN · May 2, 2019

In my district, I've seen students start fasting usually around 7th grade.

The school is super supportive - fasting can sometimes fall during MS and HS finals time and always during the period where other end of quarter tests are given. We arrange for students fasting to take the tests first thing in the morning vs afternoon so their focus is better and closer to the last time they ate, which is usually about ~3:30 AM.

BunnyBunnyBSNRN, ASN, BSN · May 2, 2019

8 hours ago, TriciaJ said:
I'm surprised the school board doesn't just contact a local imam to discuss the situation. I'm sure the imam could provide information on the age at which children in the congregation are expected to fast, what kind of exemptions are allowed and how to appropriately deal with students who seem to have trouble coping physically with the restrictions.

Thank you @TriciaJ! I emailed our local Islamic Center this morning and asked for information.

scuba nurse, BSN, MSN, RN · May 2, 2019

Thank you for this! I am in k-6 and we do have a few Muslim students who fast, and this has been an issue in the past, and I am anticipating again this year. Of course it falls during state testing as well....

LM NY · May 3, 2019

It feels amazing reading all your responses. Muslim students are blessed to have such open minded and cool nurses looking out for them. It becomes obligatory on a Muslim to fast when they have reached puberty. However, I think it really boils down to the family. Some teach their kids to try to fast as long as they can, just so they get the hang of it and it isn’t new to them when they are obligated to fast. While others choose to wait. Of course, there are exceptions. A pregnant woman, elderly or sick person are not obligated to fast. A girl that is menstruating cannot fast. I think allowing the Muslim students to sit away from the cafeteria during lunch is not necessarily singling them out. If it makes them comfortable then that is all that matters. It is also a great way to self-reflect. Then you have the energetic kids who would rather have extra recess time than sit at a table not eating.

FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN · May 4, 2019

On 5/1/2019 at 9:43 AM, OldDude said:
All very good points...but it's not up to the state to separate those kids from any other kids based on their religious belief and it's not up to the "informed faculty" to initiate any action or inaction based on their religious belief.
I think the "Notice" is well intended but I think it facilitates and enables the discrimination of Muslims in an environment where there should be a "separation between church and state."

I think it's good to educate ourselves about the culture of our patients/population, but I think we often screw this up by overgeneralizing and oversimplifying.

We need to keep in mind that the understanding we have of another person's religion is only a starting point.

Islam, for example, is thousands of years old, containing an extremely rich text and history and interpreted by millions of people. Even if we were the most educated theologians on Islam we wouldn't know what Islam means to one individual patient. That is going to vary by so many factors. Even when we know the religious edicts well, we can't know which edicts the individual follows, believes, observes and doesn't follow, believe, observe.

We also can't help but see other religions through the lens of our own religion. So if our religion prohibits certain behaviors, we will tend to look at other religions as prohibiting a behavior, when that may not be the case. The religion may offer a set of behaviors to practice as a choice to gain spiritual knowledge and we may incorrectly think of this as a requirement of the religion if that is how we understand religion. This is a very common way to misunderstand a religious practice.

People have freedom to choose religion. We don't get to judge what that means. We don't get to decide which actions constitute following a religion and which ones don't.

For example, even though the Catholic church forbids birth control, there are many practicing and devout Catholics who use birth control. We can't know which ones do and which ones don't just by knowing their religion. And we can't assume that a person doesn't practice their religion just because they dont practice a part we learned about.

I think we are often tempted to show what we know. We want our Muslim patients to know we learned something, so we're tempted to say, "It's Ramadan, so I guess you're fasting today." But really, we don't know anything about what it means to be Muslim to that patient unless he or she tells us. And it usually isn't appropriate to ask.

If students/patients make requests for accommodations for their religious practice we should accomodate them. But I think we cross a line when we start setting up things no one has asked for, or we start making assumptions about the group based on one person's request.

If Ahmed has asked to go to the library during lunch for Ramadan, then Ahmed should be allowed to go. That's respecting Ahmed's freedom of religion. But if we then tell Adila that she should also (want to) go to the library during Ramadan just because we know she's Muslim, we've crossed a line. And if we make an announcement that all Muslim students should (or are allowed to) go to the library during Ramadan, we've crossed a line.

It's enough to just have the library open at that time.

Emergent, RN · May 4, 2019

I went to a school with a high Jewish population that had certain Jewish holidays off. Yom Kipper, Rosh Hoshona (sp?). That was circa 1970.

nursej22, MSN, RN · May 4, 2019

I went to school with some kids who were Jehovah's Witnesses. They did not stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance with us every day, and did not participate in our yearly Christmas program. I think they went they went to the library while we practiced Christmas carols. Was this discrimination or practicing tolerance for religion?

And JWs are Christians, I might add.

FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN · May 5, 2019

7 hours ago, nursej22 said:
I went to school with some kids who were Jehovah's Witnesses. They did not stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance with us every day, and did not participate in our yearly Christmas program. I think they went they went to the library while we practiced Christmas carols. Was this discrimination or practicing tolerance for religion?
And JWs are Christians, I might add.

It's neither discrimination nor tolerance.

BrisketRN, BSN, RN · May 6, 2019

On 5/4/2019 at 9:51 AM, FolksBtrippin said:
I think it's good to educate ourselves about the culture of our patients/population, but I think we often screw this up by overgeneralizing and oversimplifying.
We need to keep in mind that the understanding we have of another person's religion is only a starting point.
Islam, for example, is thousands of years old, containing an extremely rich text and history and interpreted by millions of people. Even if we were the most educated theologians on Islam we wouldn't know what Islam means to one individual patient. That is going to vary by so many factors. Even when we know the religious edicts well, we can't know which edicts the individual follows, believes, observes and doesn't follow, believe, observe.
We also can't help but see other religions through the lens of our own religion. So if our religion prohibits certain behaviors, we will tend to look at other religions as prohibiting a behavior, when that may not be the case. The religion may offer a set of behaviors to practice as a choice to gain spiritual knowledge and we may incorrectly think of this as a requirement of the religion if that is how we understand religion. This is a very common way to misunderstand a religious practice.
People have freedom to choose religion. We don't get to judge what that means. We don't get to decide which actions constitute following a religion and which ones don't.
For example, even though the Catholic church forbids birth control, there are many practicing and devout Catholics who use birth control. We can't know which ones do and which ones don't just by knowing their religion. And we can't assume that a person doesn't practice their religion just because they dont practice a part we learned about.
I think we are often tempted to show what we know. We want our Muslim patients to know we learned something, so we're tempted to say, "It's Ramadan, so I guess you're fasting today." But really, we don't know anything about what it means to be Muslim to that patient unless he or she tells us. And it usually isn't appropriate to ask.
If students/patients make requests for accommodations for their religious practice we should accomodate them. But I think we cross a line when we start setting up things no one has asked for, or we start making assumptions about the group based on one person's request.
If Ahmed has asked to go to the library during lunch for Ramadan, then Ahmed should be allowed to go. That's respecting Ahmed's freedom of religion. But if we then tell Adila that she should also (want to) go to the library during Ramadan just because we know she's Muslim, we've crossed a line. And if we make an announcement that all Muslim students should (or are allowed to) go to the library during Ramadan, we've crossed a line.
It's enough to just have the library open at that time.

Wonderfully said--thank you!

nursej22, MSN, RN · May 6, 2019

On 5/4/2019 at 7:51 AM, FolksBtrippin said:
Islam, for example, is thousands of years old, containing an extremely rich text and history and interpreted by millions of people.

I very much appreciate your entire post. Except that Islam originated in the 7th century C.E., making it about 14 centuries old, rather than "thousands".