Hello- A few years ago something happened that still bothers me, and I just wanted to get some other opinions about this kind of thing in case it happens again or is hapening to other people. I was residing and working in CO at the time. Just as a note to the background, I am from MA (and reside in MA again now) and I am aware of some social & cultural differences between the two regions. One day in CO as I was standing at a pt's ICU bedside with the physician, the MD grabbed the pt's hand (the pt. was alert and awake) and MY hand and begins a Christian prayer. I was totally horrified that I was not asked before he grabbed my hand, and it was basically demanded of me to participate in this prayer. I am an atheist and I do not personally believe in prayer. I certainly have NO problem with others praying in a pt.'s room, as I know it is very comforting to some patients and their families, but I simply do not wish to be included. I felt "forced" into doing something I was, and still am, very uncomfortable with. I just quietly held the pt's hand until the praying stopped and excused myself from the room afterwards. I had no opportunity to politely extricate myself from this situation without making a "big deal" about it, and I was also concerned that sharing my personal (lack of) religious beliefs would lessen my pt's respect/trust in me. This kind of thing NEVER happened to me in MA or as a travel RN in CA, (I had been a RN for 7 years at the time) but happened twice in 2 yrs. while I was living in Colorado. What would you say or do in this situation? It was 4 years ago and it still bothers me tremendously. Thanks for your opinions!
Specializes in critical care; community health; psych.
We had a psych patient who was religiously preoccupied. We see a lot of that on our unit. Anyway, she became "paralyzed" after having a pseudo stroke. We really wanted this woman to move so knowing about her religious preoccupation, I asked her if she wanted me to lay hands on her and I did, praying in the name of Jesus for her to rise up. It was a praise Jesus miracle I tell you. She got up and walked. I went from RN to healer.
I don't mean to make light of anyone's beliefs and I'm certainly no fundamentalist anything. If anything, I'm a questioning seeker. I'm just trying to drive it home that it's about the patient. There are also statistics that show that plants that have been prayed over are healthier than those that are not. I do think there is some kind of energy there.
Would you care to share the other situation? The MD grabbed your hand, and there are few circumstances (can't think of any right now) where this would be appropriate. Would the situation still have bothered you to see the MD praying with his/her patient?
Where you asked to say a prayer yourself? While I can understand not wanting to participate, I think I'd be more bothered that someone grabbed my hand like that than the prayer itself or silently standing there.
As healthcare providers we are asked to respect others' beliefs all the time, and we know that personal beliefs of a higher power, be it judeo-christian beliefs, muslim, eastern religions, nature/earth worship, etc influence one's health, well being, and recovery.
I would address this by speaking to the MD after the fact, as not to impact the patient by showing them conflict between HCPs. Let the MD know that grabbing your hand and expecting participation in prayer is unacceptable, if he/she wants to pray with the pt. fine. Also, unless the MD knew the pt's personal beliefs, it's not appropriate for him/her to initiate a prayer either. I'm pretty shocked that the MD didn't ask first.
You didn't really participate, except in the pt's mind. It's possible that this really meant a lot to the pt as well, would you have wanted to disrupt this by "making a big deal" of the situation?
I'm in the midwest, and a have had pts ask me for prayers, and I've witnessed a lot of prayer by pts and their families of various religious backgrounds. Regardless of my personal beliefs, if it brings comfort to the pt. and family, then I'm all for it.
I wonder if you've really explored why this bothered you? This was four years ago! Are you feeling oppressed by religion in general?
Again, you've mentioned that this was in Colorado--have you heard of Focus on the Family? A lot of conservative christian beliefs out there...maybe that had something to do with it?
Sunny - that was the way I was looking at it. I was there as a nurse to provide comfort to the patient, and if I remained in the room quietly, that may make the patient feel a little more at ease. I didn't mind it. I was not in there debating their beliefs with the MD and family, just trying to give them the same respect that I would appreciate if I were the patient.
Like I said before, just my opinion. I don't force others to believe what I do or don't believe, just trying to give them the respect they deserve and I would appreciate if I were in their shoes.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses. I know being an atheist is not too popular, but let me clarify something: I don't find prayer itself offensive. What I found offensive was the physical grabbing me without asking (maybe I just have personal space issues..) and the ASSUMPTION that I want to particpate in prayer. It just would be nice to be asked first. I've certainly been present for many types of prayer or ceremonies while caring for various people, but I think it is important for a Dr. to ask first if the paitent even would like to pray (the patient did not request it) and if the nurse or whomever in the room would like to participate. I'm not some mean, unsupportive nurse just because I choose not to be affiliated with an organized religion. I'm pretty much OK with anything that is not harmful or abusive from my patients if it makes them feel good, and over the last 10 years I have seen and heard some wacky stuff!
Just a thought: I think many people see a prayer that fits in with their personal belief system as "ok", but I do have to ask you, if the Dr. was Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, whatever, and physically kind of forced you to participate in a prayer, would you still be as comfortable?
I am by no means refusing to be present or support my patients if THEY wish to pray, this is a physician behavior issue as far as I can tell. Maybe in the future I would just try to say something privately to the physician, but maybe I should just shut up as clearly I am in the minority in having a problem with this behavior. I have not worked with any Dr.s in Mass. who pray with patients unless requested to do so, so maybe I was just having a bit of culture shock. Best wishes.
I think it's kind of a rock-and-a-hard-place issue. If he DID ask you in front of the patient, would you be comfortable taking a pass? Does it change your relationship with your patient?
FWIW, my in-laws are seen at BW and MGH, and I've seen some of their MD's pray with them. It's a relationship they established during non-hospitalized times, and it just carries over to any time they're in-patient. My MIL just takes their hand, and starts right up. I'm pretty sure one of her pulmonologists is Muslim, but he doesn't decline. But then....you'd have to know my MIL....I wouldn't decline, either. LOL.
And having witnessed prayers of other religions, no...it doesn't bother me. I don't have to actively participate, you know? I'm a hand-holder, though. I didn't used to be, but I've come around to the power-of-human-touch school of thinking.
If it really bothers you, I'd encourage you to talk to the MD directly, or your NM about how to approach it...if you're unsure. You shouldn't feel that uncomfortable in the workplace.
Although I am a christian, I think that we all deal with people, pts. of different religions and although we might not always agree with other peoples beliefs I think that we should be able to respect their beliefs in the pts. time of need and participate in their ritual prayers if asked to.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
There are two incidents in my mind related to prayer that ****** me off. One was just before Joint Commission was to come to our clinic about 4 years ago. I walked into the locker room and saw nurses, managers, aides and others holding hands in a circle and someone sort of pushed me into this circle. When I asked what it was about, I was told it was to pray that we have a successful Joint Commision visit. Immediately, I backed out and said "No, I believe that prayer is personal, intimate and private". In my mind, I am thinking that these managers do not come to impart us with positive thinking and praise on a regular day because they don't give a hoot about us. Most problems that Joint Commission discovers are systemic errors, initiated by these same managers. Do I want to pray with these people?? No way.
Incident number two was during our Magnet Journey that we didn't get (thank Goodness). Suddenly, there is an announcement that nurses should come to the auditorium to participate in a multidenominational prayer service lead by the Catholic chaplain. I refused to go to that one, also for the same reasons I didn't participate in the Joint Commission prayer. Hey, we can have a common goal, but not go about it the same way. I thought that it was exploitive and even manipulative. Suddenly, these managers are crying unity in prayer?? But, I can't really come to them with my issues, or worry about being blackballed, but, I will pray with you?? No thanks!
I am a very spiritual person, more of a nature worshipper, and open to the beliefs of others, even of their right not to believe. But, it is unfair to make a person feel that they have to hold hands, come to a room or anything without fear of reprisal. If the fear of reprisal is there for us, then, the prayers and the gatherings of the mind, body and spirit cannot be sincere.
Specializes in Peds Critical Care, Dialysis, General.
Pagandeva2000-
Thanks for the laugh! Though a devout Christian myself, I find the idea of praying just before the alphabet soup people come is hysterical! Too much, too little, way too late. Especially when the day before, there just might have been a huge berating ceremony occurring. Kind of like closing the henhouse doors after the hens are out. I guess there's a word for it - hypocrisy, the scourge of the human race. If there's going to be a prayer circle or what ever, just post it or get the word out so nobody gets blindsided.
I don't feel anyone should be made at any time to participate in something that goes against their beliefs. No disrespect to the OP, but I generally have a hard time remembering to be mad at something that occurred last month, even if it was a really big deal to me. Just have learned I need to stay in the moment, learn the lessons I need to learn and go on.
If it bothered me I would have said something to the doctor afterwards. That is totally within your right to do. I'm Christian and if someone had involved me in their prayer regardless of their faith I would be okay with it because the intention behind it would be honorable. If it bought my patient some peace that would make me happy.
Well, I guess I'm in the minority here, but I did think I was doing the right thing in staying with the patient during the prayer. Like I said in an earlier post, This was a religious facility but not my religion. I felt that if it made my patient more comfortable, at ease before surgery, it wouldn't hurt me to just stand there quietly out of respect for both the patient and the MD. After all, I'm there to take care of the patient and provide comfort for him. If that is considered comfort, then I'm going to stand there and be quiet. It's not like they were talking in tongues, chanting, burning incense, or anything. A few minutes of my time just being quiet while the MD prays the patient won't kill me, and it may reassure the patient pre op.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
Well, I guess I'm in the minority here, but I did think I was doing the right thing in staying with the patient during the prayer. Like I said in an earlier post, This was a religious facility but not my religion. I felt that if it made my patient more comfortable, at ease before surgery, it wouldn't hurt me to just stand there quietly out of respect for both the patient and the MD. After all, I'm there to take care of the patient and provide comfort for him. If that is considered comfort, then I'm going to stand there and be quiet. It's not like they were talking in tongues, chanting, burning incense, or anything. A few minutes of my time just being quiet while the MD prays the patient won't kill me, and it may reassure the patient pre op.
Just my opinion.
Anne, RNC
I don't think anything is wrong with staying with a patient during prayer. In school, they speak of giving presence, and that is what a nurse would be doing. I have not faced a patient asking me to pray with or for them, but I believe I would say something comforting, sincere and generic if they asked. But, I do take issue with an employee assuming that I should and compromising me by bringing me into something without the knowledge of whether or not I actually agree. Most professionals have had some sort of discussion about this in their training and I believe we need to respect the differences in our collagues as well as our patients. We may owe it to the patient to bring about trust, but we don't have to owe it to each other to participate in things we don't wish to. Assuming it is okay to do that to each other is presumptous. JMHO.
Being forced to participate in a prayer annoys me to no end. Grabbing my hand would have resulted in an instinctive jerk of my hand. While supporting a patients well being is all fine and good and I am all for it. Supporting coworkers is out of the question.
You can consider Atheism like a religion I guess. Some Christians only wear skirts and some won't take transfuse blood. Muslims don't drink or eat pork. This atheist doesn't acknowledge other people's gods or beliefs. Of course, the well being of a patient supersedes my beliefs and any uncomfortableness in my opinion so I have no problem 'faking' it for their benefit.
Of course I make it a point for coworkers to know my atheist status to avoid any embarrassing situations. I've also learned to recognize when a situation is turning spiritual and I make it a point to become absent if possible and send the more religious types in my stead. If they don't trust me because they perceive my atheism then really that is their issue. The same goes for my coworkers and employer.
wonderbee, BSN, RN
1 Article; 2,212 Posts
We had a psych patient who was religiously preoccupied. We see a lot of that on our unit. Anyway, she became "paralyzed" after having a pseudo stroke. We really wanted this woman to move so knowing about her religious preoccupation, I asked her if she wanted me to lay hands on her and I did, praying in the name of Jesus for her to rise up. It was a praise Jesus miracle I tell you. She got up and walked. I went from RN to healer.
I don't mean to make light of anyone's beliefs and I'm certainly no fundamentalist anything. If anything, I'm a questioning seeker. I'm just trying to drive it home that it's about the patient. There are also statistics that show that plants that have been prayed over are healthier than those that are not. I do think there is some kind of energy there.
Take heart OP. It's all good.