Hello- A few years ago something happened that still bothers me, and I just wanted to get some other opinions about this kind of thing in case it happens again or is hapening to other people. I was residing and working in CO at the time. Just as a note to the background, I am from MA (and reside in MA again now) and I am aware of some social & cultural differences between the two regions. One day in CO as I was standing at a pt's ICU bedside with the physician, the MD grabbed the pt's hand (the pt. was alert and awake) and MY hand and begins a Christian prayer. I was totally horrified that I was not asked before he grabbed my hand, and it was basically demanded of me to participate in this prayer. I am an atheist and I do not personally believe in prayer. I certainly have NO problem with others praying in a pt.'s room, as I know it is very comforting to some patients and their families, but I simply do not wish to be included. I felt "forced" into doing something I was, and still am, very uncomfortable with. I just quietly held the pt's hand until the praying stopped and excused myself from the room afterwards. I had no opportunity to politely extricate myself from this situation without making a "big deal" about it, and I was also concerned that sharing my personal (lack of) religious beliefs would lessen my pt's respect/trust in me. This kind of thing NEVER happened to me in MA or as a travel RN in CA, (I had been a RN for 7 years at the time) but happened twice in 2 yrs. while I was living in Colorado. What would you say or do in this situation? It was 4 years ago and it still bothers me tremendously. Thanks for your opinions!
it was basically demanded of me to participate in this prayer. I am an atheist and I do not personally believe in prayer. I certainly have NO problem with others praying in a pt.'s room, as I know it is very comforting to some patients and their families, but I simply do not wish to be included. I felt "forced" into doing something I was, and still am, very uncomfortable with. I had no opportunity to politely extricate myself from this situation without making a "big deal" about it...
If he DID ask you in front of the patient, would you be comfortable taking a pass?
This is my question as well. If the doctor asked you if you would be willing to pray instead of just grabbing your hand (indeed inappropriate), would you have politely extricated yourself, or consented and faked it? :nuke:
Specializes in icu, er, transplant, case management, ps.
If I am understanding the incident and issue correctly, the nurse, in question, objected to her hand being grabbed and included in something she did not believe, without ever being asked. It makes no difference if the hospital is run by a religious group or not. I worked in Catholic hospitals but no one was forced to watch or attend Mass and no one was excused to attended. And certainly no one was forced to take part. The physician far exceeded boundaries. He stepped out of his role as a physician and entered one where he forced someone to engage in a practice they did not believe in. If it were me, I would have spoken to the physician and told him the next time he did this to me, I would file a lawsuit. Of course, I would have done this privately, to save him the embarassment he did not save this nurse.
I just wonder if the pt and doc had a long standing relationship, and the doc knew the pt wanted the prayer? We have a COPD'er that's a frequent flier, and she requests her doc/nurse pray with her before any procedure she has; everybody assigned to her knows this. If she had a nurse who wouldn't pray with her, it would upset her to no end. We have a nurse who happens to be an atheist, and we don't assign him that patient. No big deal, no drama, nobody gets into an uncomfortable situation.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
I just wonder if the pt and doc had a long standing relationship, and the doc knew the pt wanted the prayer? We have a COPD'er that's a frequent flier, and she requests her doc/nurse pray with her before any procedure she has; everybody assigned to her knows this. If she had a nurse who wouldn't pray with her, it would upset her to no end. We have a nurse who happens to be an atheist, and we don't assign him that patient. No big deal, no drama, nobody gets into an uncomfortable situation.
My issue is that while I can totally support the doctor for wishing to pray with the patient (assuming that the patient asked him to), it was rude of him to assume that the nurse must take part because 'he says so'. This is where he overstepped his boundaries. And, he placed the nurse in a position where she had to participate to save face and continue the nurse-client relationship, which has to be built on trust.
I agreed that the OP did the right thing by not withdrawing her hand, out of respect for the patient's fears and feeligns, however, I am curious as to if the patient even asked for this. If not, then, the prayer was a need of the MD, not the client he is supposed to care for. What if the patient said "This isn't necessary"? Would that mean that he would have treated the person differently? Is it a requirement of treatment that they must all pray with him before he performs a procedure? What if they say no? Will his scapel 'slip' put of his hands? How far does this have to go?
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
You knew it was a Christian facility, right? IMO, you shouldn't work in a facility that practices a specific religion if you don't agree with it.
If I am understanding the incident and issue correctly, the nurse, in question, objected to her hand being grabbed and included in something she did not believe, without ever being asked. It makes no difference if the hospital is run by a religious group or not. I worked in Catholic hospitals but no one was forced to watch or attend Mass and no one was excused to attended. And certainly no one was forced to take part. The physician far exceeded boundaries. He stepped out of his role as a physician and entered one where he forced someone to engage in a practice they did not believe in. If it were me, I would have spoken to the physician and told him the next time he did this to me, I would file a lawsuit. Of course, I would have done this privately, to save him the embarassment he did not save this nurse.
Woody:twocents:
I agree with Woody. Yes, this it may be a Christian facility. Does this mean that an extensive background check has to take place to assure that all housekeepers, dietary aides, electricians and all of the positions needed to operate a hospital have to embrace Christianity or whatever religion founded this facility in order to be hired? Does this mean that all of the patients have to be Christian or be threatened not to be treated? I know that there are certain observations that will take place; some Jewish hospitals, I understand do not have certain elevators working on Sabbath, Catholic Mass, etc...but does that mean that I have to be forced to partake in order to keep my job? What does that have to do with me as a dedicated employee? Just because a person does not follow a certain faith does not mean that they are not caring, competent and excellent nurses or whatever else.
If I decide that I want to seek a job, anywhere...does this mean that I have to seek out the religious background of the interviewer in order to get the position by saying that I am Muslim, Jewish or Druid? Even if I fit all of the qualifications and prudentials desired?
I don't think that I would have been angry forever, but I can understand the feeling that the OP had. The doctor was imposing his personal belief on the nurse, and possibly the patient. For that, I believe he was wrong, and should have been spoken to later.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
This is my question as well. If the doctor asked you if you would be willing to pray instead of just grabbing your hand (indeed inappropriate), would you have politely extricated yourself, or consented and faked it? :nuke:
I know that this question wasn't directed at me, but I would have probably bent my head in prayer in order to keep the trust and even respect of the patient-so yeah, I would have faked it. But, that doctor would have known about it privately, later.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
Being forced to participate in a prayer annoys me to no end. Grabbing my hand would have resulted in an instinctive jerk of my hand. While supporting a patients well being is all fine and good and I am all for it. Supporting coworkers is out of the question.
You can consider Atheism like a religion I guess. Some Christians only wear skirts and some won't take transfuse blood. Muslims don't drink or eat pork. This atheist doesn't acknowledge other people's gods or beliefs. Of course, the well being of a patient supersedes my beliefs and any uncomfortableness in my opinion so I have no problem 'faking' it for their benefit.
Of course I make it a point for coworkers to know my atheist status to avoid any embarrassing situations. I've also learned to recognize when a situation is turning spiritual and I make it a point to become absent if possible and send the more religious types in my stead. If they don't trust me because they perceive my atheism then really that is their issue. The same goes for my coworkers and employer.
I have to say that I agree with you, here. There is no reason for me to support the co-workers in their need to introduce prayer to me. I am not an atheist, and I do respect the faiths (or non-faith) of everyone. While I am not an atheist, I can see how a person can be one. It is hard to have faith in what is not seen or experienced, and I would never force a person to try and see things my way.
Regarding the patients-I am a nurse. I took that portion of nursing seriously when we spoke about rendering our presence. If allowed, I will hold their hand, rub their backs, cry with them. If it would bring them a bit of peace, I would give my presence. If asked, I may bow my head...it is to their benefit at that moment, not mine.
Like you, I don't keep it a secret from my co-workersthat I am not into fundamentalist religions in order not to embarass them or even myself. But, I do not owe it to them to comply, because then, it becomes all about them.
I have to say that I agree with you, here. There is no reason for me to support the co-workers in their need to introduce prayer to me. I am not an atheist, and I do respect the faiths (or non-faith) of everyone. While I am not an atheist, I can see how a person can be one. It is hard to have faith in what is not seen or experienced, and I would never force a person to try and see things my way.
Regarding the patients-I am a nurse. I took that portion of nursing seriously when we spoke about rendering our presence. If allowed, I will hold their hand, rub their backs, cry with them. If it would bring them a bit of peace, I would give my presence. If asked, I may bow my head...it is to their benefit at that moment, not mine.
Like you, I don't keep it a secret from my co-workersthat I am not into fundamentalist religions in order not to embarass them or even myself. But, I do not owe it to them to comply, because then, it becomes all about them.
Exactly!! That is the point I have been trying to get across! You said it much better than me. I went into nursing to help patients meet all their needs, not just meds and assessments, ect. In my opinion, comfort measures are a part of nursing, including backrubs, hand holding, and just sitting there spending a little time with them, talking and listening. I do feel that if I can make the patient feel a little better, then I have done my job. Me standing with my head bowed quietly while the MD prays with the pt is a small price to pay, because this in my opinion, that is part of my job. (Just my opinion, please don't fry me just for voicing my opinion. Everyone has one and is entitled to have theirs.)
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
Exactly!! That is the point I have been trying to get across! You said it much better than me. I went into nursing to help patients meet all their needs, not just meds and assessments, ect. In my opinion, comfort measures are a part of nursing, including backrubs, hand holding, and just sitting there spending a little time with them, talking and listening. I do feel that if I can make the patient feel a little better, then I have done my job. Me standing with my head bowed quietly while the MD prays with the pt is a small price to pay, because this in my opinion, that is part of my job. (Just my opinion, please don't fry me just for voicing my opinion. Everyone has one and is entitled to have theirs.)
Anne, RNC
I am not about to add you to the frying pan:icon_hug:. I did all that I could do to make the patients I worked with in the step down unit I worked per diem in Sunday, so I know exactly what you are meaning...I get your point 100%. I wiped their brows, did pulmonary toileting, made jokes when appropriate, bathed them, and at the end of the day, I thanked one because I learned a great deal by taking care of him. I am a nurse because I want to care for people who need me.
Now, for the employees, some of them can be so judgemental, gossipy and just plain toxic that I can't take the time to be interested in what they all need, because some of them are not that sincere, just posturing. Can't entertain that for a moment!
Thanks for clarifying. This is what I suspected, the assumption that you shared the same beliefs, and that your participation was a given. That would have upset me too, which is why I would encourage (if it would ever happen again) that you speak to the MD privately AFTER, out of respect for your pts.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses. I know being an atheist is not too popular, but let me clarify something: I don't find prayer itself offensive. What I found offensive was the physical grabbing me without asking (maybe I just have personal space issues..) and the ASSUMPTION that I want to particpate in prayer. It just would be nice to be asked first. I've certainly been present for many types of prayer or ceremonies while caring for various people, but I think it is important for a Dr. to ask first if the paitent even would like to pray (the patient did not request it) and if the nurse or whomever in the room would like to participate. I'm not some mean, unsupportive nurse just because I choose not to be affiliated with an organized religion. I'm pretty much OK with anything that is not harmful or abusive from my patients if it makes them feel good, and over the last 10 years I have seen and heard some wacky stuff!
Just a thought: I think many people see a prayer that fits in with their personal belief system as "ok", but I do have to ask you, if the Dr. was Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, whatever, and physically kind of forced you to participate in a prayer, would you still be as comfortable?
I am by no means refusing to be present or support my patients if THEY wish to pray, this is a physician behavior issue as far as I can tell. Maybe in the future I would just try to say something privately to the physician, but maybe I should just shut up as clearly I am in the minority in having a problem with this behavior. I have not worked with any Dr.s in Mass. who pray with patients unless requested to do so, so maybe I was just having a bit of culture shock. Best wishes.
If I am understanding the incident and issue correctly, the nurse, in question, objected to her hand being grabbed and included in something she did not believe, without ever being asked. It makes no difference if the hospital is run by a religious group or not. I worked in Catholic hospitals but no one was forced to watch or attend Mass and no one was excused to attended. And certainly no one was forced to take part. The physician far exceeded boundaries. He stepped out of his role as a physician and entered one where he forced someone to engage in a practice they did not believe in. If it were me, I would have spoken to the physician and told him the next time he did this to me, I would file a lawsuit. Of course, I would have done this privately, to save him the embarassment he did not save this nurse.
Woody:twocents:
Being forced to participate in a prayer annoys me to no end. Grabbing my hand would have resulted in an instinctive jerk of my hand. While supporting a patients well being is all fine and good and I am all for it. Supporting coworkers is out of the question, and exercised some free-will assertiveness. If she had done that and still was grapped and forced to pray, then that's assault.
You can consider Atheism like a religion I guess. Some Christians only wear skirts and some won't take transfuse blood. Muslims don't drink or eat pork. This atheist doesn't acknowledge other people's gods or beliefs. Of course, the well being of a patient supersedes my beliefs and any uncomfortableness in my opinion so I have no problem 'faking' it for their benefit.
Of course I make it a point for coworkers to know my atheist status to avoid any embarrassing situations. I've also learned to recognize when a situation is turning spiritual and I make it a point to become absent if possible and send the more religious types in my stead. If they don't trust me because they perceive my atheism then really that is their issue. The same goes for my coworkers and employer.
I didn't get the impression that the op was forced to participate. While she wasn't asked, and her hand was taken (grapped might even be too strong a word), she choose to participate by not saying nothing (which to me was a very decent and kind act). She surely could have left quietly, exercising some assertive free will saying she wasn't comfortable.
I'm not condoning what this doc did because I think he was presumptious and wrong.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
I didn't get the impression that the op was forced to participate. While she wasn't asked, and her hand was taken (grapped might even be too strong a word), she choose to participate by not saying nothing (which to me was a very decent and kind act). She surely could have left quietly, exercising some assertive free will saying she wasn't comfortable.
I'm not condoning what this doc did because I think he was presumptious and wrong.
I sort of think she was coerced to participate, because if the patient was watching the entire interaction and saw the nurse walk away, all sorts of things could have went through his/her mind; "Is my case that hopeless...maybe she never liked me...she doesn't care what happens to me..." and rather than leave the patient in a quandery, the nurse saved face and stayed. Yes, I would say that ultimately, the nurse choose to stay, but I think it was because she placed the possible (and I say possible, because it still isn't clear to me if the patient requested a prayer at all) need of the patient and remained there.
BradleyRN
520 Posts
This is my question as well. If the doctor asked you if you would be willing to pray instead of just grabbing your hand (indeed inappropriate), would you have politely extricated yourself, or consented and faked it? :nuke: