Hello- A few years ago something happened that still bothers me, and I just wanted to get some other opinions about this kind of thing in case it happens again or is hapening to other people. I was residing and working in CO at the time. Just as a note to the background, I am from MA (and reside in MA again now) and I am aware of some social & cultural differences between the two regions. One day in CO as I was standing at a pt's ICU bedside with the physician, the MD grabbed the pt's hand (the pt. was alert and awake) and MY hand and begins a Christian prayer. I was totally horrified that I was not asked before he grabbed my hand, and it was basically demanded of me to participate in this prayer. I am an atheist and I do not personally believe in prayer. I certainly have NO problem with others praying in a pt.'s room, as I know it is very comforting to some patients and their families, but I simply do not wish to be included. I felt "forced" into doing something I was, and still am, very uncomfortable with. I just quietly held the pt's hand until the praying stopped and excused myself from the room afterwards. I had no opportunity to politely extricate myself from this situation without making a "big deal" about it, and I was also concerned that sharing my personal (lack of) religious beliefs would lessen my pt's respect/trust in me. This kind of thing NEVER happened to me in MA or as a travel RN in CA, (I had been a RN for 7 years at the time) but happened twice in 2 yrs. while I was living in Colorado. What would you say or do in this situation? It was 4 years ago and it still bothers me tremendously. Thanks for your opinions!
I had something related to prayer happen last semester in clinical. (I'm a nursing student). It was different because it wasn't with a patient, and I was asked (sort of).
I was basically corralled into a prayer circle and people on each side were already reaching out to hold my hands when someone "asked" me to join. I didn't see it coming. Here's what happened.
I walked into the break room to put my lunch in the fridge and happened upon the oncoming shift's nurses gathering. They formed a circle, holding hands, and asked me to join them. At first I was a bit stunned, but I just went along with them. They prayed to God and Jesus for their patients that day.
As I walked away, I thought it was really sweet that they included me, this nursing student, to join them in something so sacred and important to them.
Maybe try to view it that way. You were in another culture and didn't realize it. Christian Colorado is quite different than the New England area! While the doc was awfully presumptive, he was trying to include you in something sacred to him, and hopefully, the patient . Yes, he should have asked and not assumed. Hopefully this was desired by the patient because that's what is most important.
As a nurse surely you have had more odd moments as this and far more disturbing. There are somethings worth making an issue over this is not one. Whether you realize you have your beliefs and I am sure you have expressed them at one time or another. Alot of people would find it offensive that you are atheist. By just telling that, you exposed your self in either a negative light or a positive light before some people. The key is being mature and respectful. You done the right thing by just not making an issue out of it. Let it go. I am a christian and if I was the one being prayed for I would have felt blessed. Had you made an issue out of it, it would have caused some undo stress. I have dealt with some wierd stuff. One pt I cared for believed his dogs were people in the past life and he lived in NY in the early 1900s and liked to ice skate. I made no comment.:nuke:
Would you care to share the other situation? The MD grabbed your hand, and there are few circumstances (can't think of any right now) where this would be appropriate. Would the situation still have bothered you to see the MD praying with his/her patient?
Where you asked to say a prayer yourself? While I can understand not wanting to participate, I think I'd be more bothered that someone grabbed my hand like that than the prayer itself or silently standing there.
As healthcare providers we are asked to respect others' beliefs all the time, and we know that personal beliefs of a higher power, be it judeo-christian beliefs, muslim, eastern religions, nature/earth worship, etc influence one's health, well being, and recovery.
I would address this by speaking to the MD after the fact, as not to impact the patient by showing them conflict between HCPs. Let the MD know that grabbing your hand and expecting participation in prayer is unacceptable, if he/she wants to pray with the pt. fine. Also, unless the MD knew the pt's personal beliefs, it's not appropriate for him/her to initiate a prayer either. I'm pretty shocked that the MD didn't ask first.
You didn't really participate, except in the pt's mind. It's possible that this really meant a lot to the pt as well, would you have wanted to disrupt this by "making a big deal" of the situation?
I'm in the midwest, and a have had pts ask me for prayers, and I've witnessed a lot of prayer by pts and their families of various religious backgrounds. Regardless of my personal beliefs, if it brings comfort to the pt. and family, then I'm all for it.
I wonder if you've really explored why this bothered you? This was four years ago! Are you feeling oppressed by religion in general?
Again, you've mentioned that this was in Colorado--have you heard of Focus on the Family? A lot of conservative christian beliefs out there...maybe that had something to do with it?
Hello- A few years ago something happened that still bothers me, and I just wanted to get some other opinions about this kind of thing in case it happens again or is hapening to other people. I was residing and working in CO at the time. Just as a note to the background, I am from MA (and reside in MA again now) and I am aware of some social & cultural differences between the two regions. One day in CO as I was standing at a pt's ICU bedside with the physician, the MD grabbed the pt's hand (the pt. was alert and awake) and MY hand and begins a Christian prayer. I was totally horrified that I was not asked before he grabbed my hand, and it was basically demanded of me to participate in this prayer. I am an atheist and I do not personally believe in prayer. I certainly have NO problem with others praying in a pt.'s room, as I know it is very comforting to some patients and their families, but I simply do not wish to be included. I felt "forced" into doing something I was, and still am, very uncomfortable with. I just quietly held the pt's hand until the praying stopped and excused myself from the room afterwards. I had no opportunity to politely extricate myself from this situation without making a "big deal" about it, and I was also concerned that sharing my personal (lack of) religious beliefs would lessen my pt's respect/trust in me. This kind of thing NEVER happened to me in MA or as a travel RN in CA, (I had been a RN for 7 years at the time) but happened twice in 2 yrs. while I was living in Colorado. What would you say or do in this situation? It was 4 years ago and it still bothers me tremendously. Thanks for your opinions!
I am a Christian, but I think that regardless of what religion or type of prayer was taking place, it would be fine by me if it helped the patient. Even if it was muslim or to some other God that I don't believe in. I would not feel comfortable verbally participating, but to just be their and hold their hand, I think I'd be ok with that, as long as they were not praying to satan. Just my thoughts. Since it has bothered you for such a long time, I'd just have a pre-prepared comment you can politely use if the situation were to arise again. I can see your side as well, being somewhat annoyed by the doctor, but not the patient.
As a fellow atheist, I too would have been disturbed. Not in a, "I'm going to file a lawsuit because my religious freedom was oppressed" sort of way; but in a, "hey, I'm not Christian, this isn't my scene" way.
I feel it's really disrespectful to the people who *do* believe to have someone "faking" it. I also think there is a difference between asking someone to pray and grabbing someone's hand and pulling them into a prayer circle. One is private and the other is participating in a group (ie public) activity. Have you ever been in a group prayer and not wanted to participate? Am I supposed to say AMEN at the end? If I do, that is totally a faking lie; if I don't, it doesn't seem like a prayer--which is worse for the pt? Like panandeva says, I feel like I'm contributing terrible negative energy if I'm really uncomfortable like that. I don't have a problem bowing my head respectfully while a prayer is said; but I would be extremely uncomfortable participating in a physical prayer circle.
Were you in a religiously based hospital? In that case, I'd go with the flow and shrug it off as part of the job. If it was a public or non-religiously based hospital, the first time it happened, I'd probably just let it go. If a particular doc kept doing it, I'd take him aside privately later and let him know you aren't Christian and would prefer to not participate in a group prayer.
I wonder what the *honest* response would have been if a Muslim doc would have pulled you to the ground on a prayer rug, faced you east, and made you bow in prayer for the Muslim pt? Would that have been okay, too, since it was all about the patient? It's only a prayer that involves physical as well as mental participation, similar to a group prayer circle. Or would some Christian or Jewish nurses feel like that would be unacceptable, particularly if it took place in a public or non-Islamic hospital? It's an honest question, I'm not trying to be a beeyoch. I'm just wondering if, from a different perspective, it still would seem okay to physically involve someone in a religious experience, regardless of whether they want to participate or not, as long as it is therapeutic for the pt?
I did not feel as though I was "faking it". I simply thought "if I were the patient and going to have surgery, how would I feel?" Instead of faking it, I just felt like it was giving the patient a little more comfort befor having surgery. It's not like they were chanting, or something, and I feel like it would have been ruder to walk out and leave than just stay quiet and let them have a minute.
I feel that forcing someone to their knees in prayer is just sliiiightly different than taking the hand of a person already standing in a kind of "circle."
So you feel that grabbing someone's hand to pull them into a group prayer circle is different than grabbing someone's hand to pull them down next to you in a kneeling position? Is the latter still acceptable, or is it not?
I agree with Sunny that the hand holding is what would probably creep me out the most...
I also agree that it isn't worth worrying about too much, in the long run. Like Ramamama suggests, having a little scripted reply is your best bet in situations like this. What's nice about uncomfortable situations is that you can review it in your mind, decide where your boundaries are, and decide how you will react next time. Of course life is always fluid, and your views will probably change the more experiences you have, but at least now you've had time to think about it and know where your current comfort zone is.
I did not feel as though I was "faking it". I simply thought "if I were the patient and going to have surgery, how would I feel?" Instead of faking it, I just felt like it was giving the patient a little more comfort befor having surgery. It's not like they were chanting, or something, and I feel like it would have been ruder to walk out and leave than just stay quiet and let them have a minute.
Anne, RNC
Do you feel that there is a difference between asking someone to participate in a prayer circle, hands held, and asking them to bow their heads and pray? My personal feelings are yes. I am comfortable bowing my head and wishing them well; I am not comfortable participating in a prayer circle. I'm not sure I can even articulate exactly why I would be comfortable with one and completely not with the other.
I have never been asked to do so in the workplace. If it were a regular event, I'd avoid it. If it were a one time thing I just happened to be there for, I probably would just go along with it and feel dirty afterwards. I do want to do what's best for the pt, but the energy of a prayer circle is way outside of my comfort zone.
So you feel that grabbing someone's hand to pull them into a group prayer circle is different than grabbing someone's hand to pull them down next to you in a kneeling position? Is the latter still acceptable, or is it not?
My understanding is that the "pulled into a prayer circle" has been added to the issue. The RN was standing next to the patient and next to the MD already. He grasped both of their hands and said a prayer. That's all.
If someone grabbed my anything and tried to drag me anywhere, we'd have words.
Okay, being that it was the MD who initiated the prayer, and not the patient, I do agree that it was an inappropriate action to take, and I would have taken the physician aside later and let him know of your feelings.
However, I do believe that if a patient had asked you to pray with him/her, there would be nothing wrong with you simply holding his/her hands and sitting with him/her while they prayed. It's comforting to them, and since you don't believe it does ANYTHING (hurts or harms) I don't understand why you'd be so uncomfortable with it. I mean, personally for instance, I don't believe in homosexuality, but I would never refuse to take care of a patient, or treat them any differently because of their personal beliefs.
My understanding is that the "pulled into a prayer circle" has been added to the issue. The RN was standing next to the patient and next to the MD already. He grasped both of their hands and said a prayer. That's all.
If someone grabbed my anything and tried to drag me anywhere, we'd have words.
Pulled being used metaphorically. Try it like that. Is it still okay to expect someone to kneel down and bow, using some sort of physical touch to initiate the process? Do you see any difference between a prayer circle as defined by the prolonged touching of someone (without permission) and simply asking someone to pray?
I don't know, maybe in most people's minds there isn't any difference between the two. I feel that there is.
Pulled being used metaphorically. Try it like that. Is it still okay to expect someone to kneel down and bow, using some sort of physical touch to initiate the process? Do you see any difference between a prayer circle as defined by the prolonged touching of someone (without permission) and simply asking someone to pray?
I don't know, maybe in most people's minds there isn't any difference between the two. I feel that there is.
I find there to be a large difference between being asked to subjugate before someone else's deity, and using physical touch to create a bond in an intimate moment of spiritual support.
Do you feel that there is a difference between asking someone to participate in a prayer circle, hands held, and asking them to bow their heads and pray? My personal feelings are yes. I am comfortable bowing my head and wishing them well; I am not comfortable participating in a prayer circle. I'm not sure I can even articulate exactly why I would be comfortable with one and completely not with the other.
I have never been asked to do so in the workplace. If it were a regular event, I'd avoid it. If it were a one time thing I just happened to be there for, I probably would just go along with it and feel dirty afterwards. I do want to do what's best for the pt, but the energy of a prayer circle is way outside of my comfort zone.
Well, we weren't in a circle, per say, but the MD did hold our hands. I was working in a Catholic facility, but I am not Catholic. I felt at the time, that I would have felt like I was being rude just walking out the door when he took my hand. And, the patient was frightened and in pain. I tried to put myself in the patient's shoes. It just felt to me that staying there quietly would be respectable.
I do respect your opinion, and the other posters on the thread. Opinions are like colons, every one has one. I just felt like that was the right decision for ME, at that time in that hospital. He held me hand, and he did not ask me to do anything, so I didn't mind staying.
And, the hand holding didn't really bother me, I have had patients and families both hold my hand, and I have been in patient's rooms before when their minister from church walked in and started praying for them, and I just gave them a little silent respect also. I understand that different people have different views on the matter, and as I said, it just felt to me that it was a better decision than leaving. Like I said, not MY religion, but I feel as though the patient and MD have their own opinions on the matter, just as the other posters do. I was just trying to give them the same respect that I would appreciate if I were in their shoes. Again, just my opinion, and I'm not saying everyone has to feel the same way, or do the same thing. Just giving them the same courtesy that I would appreciate.
Multicollinearity, BSN, RN
3,119 Posts
I had something related to prayer happen last semester in clinical. (I'm a nursing student). It was different because it wasn't with a patient, and I was asked (sort of).
I was basically corralled into a prayer circle and people on each side were already reaching out to hold my hands when someone "asked" me to join. I didn't see it coming. Here's what happened.
I walked into the break room to put my lunch in the fridge and happened upon the oncoming shift's nurses gathering. They formed a circle, holding hands, and asked me to join them. At first I was a bit stunned, but I just went along with them. They prayed to God and Jesus for their patients that day.
As I walked away, I thought it was really sweet that they included me, this nursing student, to join them in something so sacred and important to them.
Maybe try to view it that way. You were in another culture and didn't realize it. Christian Colorado is quite different than the New England area! While the doc was awfully presumptive, he was trying to include you in something sacred to him, and hopefully, the patient . Yes, he should have asked and not assumed. Hopefully this was desired by the patient because that's what is most important.