Prayer at work??

ilstu99 · Jul 21, 2008

I would listen quietly and then go on about my day.

It's a moment that's not about me and my beliefs, it's about supporting my patient and their family. Whether they worship Christ, or Allah....are believers of the Four Noble Truths or praise the Great Mother......I couldn't care less. Whatever brings them comfort. I don't have to agree or disagree with their choices, or feel as though listening to their prayer makes me part of their religious values. In my opinion, it's not much different than encouraging them to enjoy their NASCAR race or Yankees game. It helps them get through their experience.

Actually...the Yankees game would be a bitter pill....but I can take one for the team.

Jules A, MSN · Jul 21, 2008

I understand that it wasn't your belief and you felt uncomfortable but that is a long time to be upset over something that in the big picture really isn't a huge deal, imo.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Jul 21, 2008

I do think it is presumptive for people (especially co-workers) to assume that we all share the same religious and spiritual beliefs. It is entirely personal. So, I guess I would have been ticked that the physician grabbed my hand and sort of forced me to pray with them as well; because I see prayer as energy. If a group of people pray but have conflicting views or agendas, I believe it is felt by the person that needs it. Of course, this is my personal view, only and anyone is open to feel what they want.

Regarding the patients, if they were to ever ask me to pray, I believe that I would, and would make it a general prayer that can be meant for anyone. Reading the OPs thread does make me wonder if the patient themselves asked for the prayer, or did the MD take it upon himself to assume it was even wanted.

mianders, RN · Jul 21, 2008

As healthcare workers we deal with people of every faith and culture on a daily basis. We are not always going to agree with everything we see or do. I have been in the room when prayers were said by different religions then myself and have never been offended by it. I feel like it would have been a sign of disrespect to walk out in the middle of it. Tolerance and compassion are 2 important areas of nursing. Considering what we see every single day, I am suprised that what seems to be a minor incident can still bother you so much after 4 years.

mpccrn, BSN, RN · Jul 21, 2008

i agree with ilstu99...it's not about you or your beliefs....it's about the patient. it's such a little thing in the grand scheme of things. it probably took all of 2 minutes. fretting about it years later is frankly giving it tooooo much energy.

nerdtonurse?, BSN, RN · Jul 21, 2008

I'm a religious person, but I don't go around chanting latin and waving incense. I've had patients who were chrisitians ask me to pray with them, and I have (night shift, no chaplain). However, if they were another faith and wanted me to be present as their rabbi, iman, shaman or priestess prayed with them, or they said a prayer themselves, I would participate out of respect to the patient, not as a statement of shared belief.

queenjean · Jul 21, 2008

As a fellow atheist, I too would have been disturbed. Not in a, "I'm going to file a lawsuit because my religious freedom was oppressed" sort of way; but in a, "hey, I'm not Christian, this isn't my scene" way.

I feel it's really disrespectful to the people who *do* believe to have someone "faking" it. I also think there is a difference between asking someone to pray and grabbing someone's hand and pulling them into a prayer circle. One is private and the other is participating in a group (ie public) activity. Have you ever been in a group prayer and not wanted to participate? Am I supposed to say AMEN at the end? If I do, that is totally a faking lie; if I don't, it doesn't seem like a prayer--which is worse for the pt? Like panandeva says, I feel like I'm contributing terrible negative energy if I'm really uncomfortable like that. I don't have a problem bowing my head respectfully while a prayer is said; but I would be extremely uncomfortable participating in a physical prayer circle.

Were you in a religiously based hospital? In that case, I'd go with the flow and shrug it off as part of the job. If it was a public or non-religiously based hospital, the first time it happened, I'd probably just let it go. If a particular doc kept doing it, I'd take him aside privately later and let him know you aren't Christian and would prefer to not participate in a group prayer.

I wonder what the *honest* response would have been if a Muslim doc would have pulled you to the ground on a prayer rug, faced you east, and made you bow in prayer for the Muslim pt? Would that have been okay, too, since it was all about the patient? It's only a prayer that involves physical as well as mental participation, similar to a group prayer circle. Or would some Christian or Jewish nurses feel like that would be unacceptable, particularly if it took place in a public or non-Islamic hospital? It's an honest question, I'm not trying to be a beeyoch. I'm just wondering if, from a different perspective, it still would seem okay to physically involve someone in a religious experience, regardless of whether they want to participate or not, as long as it is therapeutic for the pt?

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jul 21, 2008

I think you did the right thing by quietly not making a scene and making it about the patient and not you.

I'm not a Christian either, but more of a humanist, but being the good Universalist Unitarian that I am, I respect and allow others their journey. I think you showed a tremendous amount of respect for them by simply being present and you shouldn't make it anything more than that.

Perhaps you should have told the doc afterwards not to do it again.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jul 21, 2008

As a fellow atheist, I too would have been disturbed. Not in a, "I'm going to file a lawsuit because my religious freedom was oppressed" sort of way; but in a, "hey, I'm not Christian, this isn't my scene" way.
I feel it's really disrespectful to the people who *do* believe to have someone "faking" it. I also think there is a difference between asking someone to pray and grabbing someone's hand and pulling them into a prayer circle. One is private and the other is participating in a group (ie public) activity. Have you ever been in a group prayer and not wanted to participate? Am I supposed to say AMEN at the end? If I do, that is totally a faking lie; if I don't, it doesn't seem like a prayer--which is worse for the pt? Like panandeva says, I feel like I'm contributing terrible negative energy if I'm really uncomfortable like that. I don't have a problem bowing my head respectfully while a prayer is said; but I would be extremely uncomfortable participating in a physical prayer circle.
Were you in a religiously based hospital? In that case, I'd go with the flow and shrug it off as part of the job. If it was a public or non-religiously based hospital, the first time it happened, I'd probably just let it go. If a particular doc kept doing it, I'd take him aside privately later and let him know you aren't Christian and would prefer to not participate in a group prayer.
I wonder what the *honest* response would have been if a Muslim doc would have pulled you to the ground on a prayer rug, faced you east, and made you bow in prayer for the Muslim pt? Would that have been okay, too, since it was all about the patient? It's only a prayer that involves physical as well as mental participation, similar to a group prayer circle. Or would some Christian or Jewish nurses feel like that would be unacceptable, particularly if it took place in a public or non-Islamic hospital? It's an honest question, I'm not trying to be a beeyoch. I'm just wondering if, from a different perspective, it still would seem okay to physically involve someone in a religious experience, regardless of whether they want to participate or not, as long as it is therapeutic for the pt?

Good points all. This is what I would do, not that it's what's right for you or someone else.

I've been in a room where someone lit candles and prayed to the Goddess, as well as other minor things, and I think that's o.k. I think I would individualize it without making blanket statements about what I would and wouldn't do. If I was in a room and someone grabbed any hand to pray, I would quietly put up with it. Would I allow myself to be physically maneveured to kneel? No, at that point I would find a way leave.

We each have to define for ourselves what's o.k. and what isn't.

ilstu99 · Jul 21, 2008

As a fellow atheist, I too would have been disturbed. Not in a, "I'm going to file a lawsuit because my religious freedom was oppressed" sort of way; but in a, "hey, I'm not Christian, this isn't my scene" way.
I feel it's really disrespectful to the people who *do* believe to have someone "faking" it. I also think there is a difference between asking someone to pray and grabbing someone's hand and pulling them into a prayer circle. One is private and the other is participating in a group (ie public) activity. Have you ever been in a group prayer and not wanted to participate? Am I supposed to say AMEN at the end? If I do, that is totally a faking lie; if I don't, it doesn't seem like a prayer--which is worse for the pt? Like panandeva says, I feel like I'm contributing terrible negative energy if I'm really uncomfortable like that. I don't have a problem bowing my head respectfully while a prayer is said; but I would be extremely uncomfortable participating in a physical prayer circle.
Were you in a religiously based hospital? In that case, I'd go with the flow and shrug it off as part of the job. If it was a public or non-religiously based hospital, the first time it happened, I'd probably just let it go. If a particular doc kept doing it, I'd take him aside privately later and let him know you aren't Christian and would prefer to not participate in a group prayer.
I wonder what the *honest* response would have been if a Muslim doc would have pulled you to the ground on a prayer rug, faced you east, and made you bow in prayer for the Muslim pt? Would that have been okay, too, since it was all about the patient? It's only a prayer that involves physical as well as mental participation, similar to a group prayer circle. Or would some Christian or Jewish nurses feel like that would be unacceptable, particularly if it took place in a public or non-Islamic hospital? It's an honest question, I'm not trying to be a beeyoch. I'm just wondering if, from a different perspective, it still would seem okay to physically involve someone in a religious experience, regardless of whether they want to participate or not, as long as it is therapeutic for the pt?

I feel that forcing someone to their knees in prayer is just sliiiightly different than taking the hand of a person already standing in a kind of "circle."

You've never "faked" being interested in something a patient was talking about? Really? Cause I do it every dang shift. I'm not disrespecting my patient's families by "faking" my interest in whatever subject they're talking about....I'm taking an active interest in my patient. I don't have to be invested in their interests to be invested in them. I could care less about racing radio-controlled boats (THE #1 topic of my current primary patient's dad), but an easy "That sounds like it brings you a great deal of pleasure," makes him feel heard and supported by me.

When someone is engaged in a prayer I don't necessarily agree with, I can give my support by forming my own supportive words in my head. Sometimes, I say them outloud. A simple, "May this prayer bring you comfort" is honest, genuine, and supportive....without bringing my own personal views into the mix. It's not about me.

I think people often give this particular issue more weight than it needs because it feels so personal. It's just not a hill I'd be willing to die on in the workplace.

sissiesmama, ASN, RN · Jul 21, 2008

At my place of employment, one of our general surgeons does this also. I do have religious beliefs, it was a different religion, but I just don't hold most of the same beliefs that his religion does. When I round with this MD, I just bow my head and give him his time while he prays. The patients all love him for it, and if it means the patient may be more relaxed about their impending surgery, I'm all for it.

Anne, RNC