Patient Refusing Unvaccinated RN

[Delia37]

Just as the tittle implies, we recently had a patient's family refusing a nurse who is not vaccinated. As of now, vaccination at my facility is still voluntary; becoming mandatory after September 1st (we still have several staff on the fence about it). My understanding is that the patient happened to come in as a stroke, with a prior  hx of prostate CA. Not sure what was the context of the conversation, but the patient's wife asked the nurse at the time if she was vaccinated (she was not and answered honestly...she could had refused); prompting the wife to request a different nurse due her fear of exposing her possible immunocompromised husband...the assignment was changed. The feeling of some of my co-workers is that we shouldn't had accommodated the request in support of the staff; however, many feel the wife had the right to advocate for her husband and had a valid concern. This has become a hot topic of conversation in the unit during downtime. 

Have anyone come across to anything similar?? If so, how was it handled?

[toomuchbaloney]

2 hours ago, londonflo said:

When HIV was new and misunderstood, any hospital personnel who refused the care assignment was fired where I worked. I would like clarification if things are different now or were you referring to private duty and travel assignments?

I'm suggesting that the specific member that I was responding to isn't terribly familiar with their health profession while they are sharing poorly sourced opinions about vaccine concerns.  

[Oemgee, RN]

I’d question the judgement of any healthcare professional taking care of myself or my family member that didn’t have the sense to be vaccinated. Vaccination isn’t foolproof and people can still get COVID and spread it but someone who doesn’t take that kind of basic precaution isn’t likely to take other common sense measures to protect themselves and their patients. I fully support mandatory vaccination and the right to refuse providers who don’t demonstrate good judgement.

[sergel02, BSN]

On 7/21/2021 at 5:17 PM, DesiDani said:

Seriously LOL! This site is filled with projection. Didn't you project that I was being hell bent on something as if I was a VACCINATED antivaxer (wait that is sounds oddly ironic).  There is no drama in my opinion. It is just that an opinion. Yet, it is you that keeps on stating your opinion, yes opinion, as well. It is my opinion, that the wife is being naïve. It is your opinion she is not.

Simple. No need for drawn out chatroom drama. 

I don’t really understand your view so maybe you can explain, since I know others feel the same as you. 
 

Being vaccinated reduces risk of transmission. Many studies have shown that. Obviously not zero though. But why is it naive or bad for a patient’s family to want to reduce that risk as much as reasonably possible?

[SansNom]

3 hours ago, sergel02 said:

Being vaccinated reduces risk of transmission. Many studies have shown that. Obviously not zero though. But why is it naive or bad for a patient’s family to want to reduce that risk as much as reasonably possible?

I agree with you, but I think to many people it is more than just a scientific question and more of a philosophical question. The idea of "forcing" anyone to take an injection seems unacceptable, and frankly I would agree with that purely on a philosophical level. I would never support a government mandating vaccines simply based on the philosophical principle that there has to be a line drawn where I have control over my body when it won't definitively affect anyone else, just hypothetically. It's a tricky line to draw.

On the other hand, I fully believe any private entity can require practically whatever they want for employment. I've heard of hospitals in my area that test for nicotine and won't hire you if you have it in your system.

Following that line of thinking, unless you just can't understand or accept the science (in which case nursing probably isn't the field for you), patients and families should have the right to know your vaccination status if they want because it does potentially affect them directly. The kind of nurse that doesn't want anyone to know their vax status probably wouldn't mind hiding if they had a scratchy throat or congestion or fever either.

[sergel02, BSN]

1 hour ago, SansNom said:

I agree with you, but I think to many people it is more than just a scientific question and more of a philosophical question. The idea of "forcing" anyone to take an injection seems unacceptable, and frankly I would agree with that purely on a philosophical level. I would never support a government mandating vaccines simply based on the philosophical principle that there has to be a line drawn where I have control over my body when it won't definitively affect anyone else, just hypothetically. It's a tricky line to draw.

On the other hand, I fully believe any private entity can require practically whatever they want for employment. I've heard of hospitals in my area that test for nicotine and won't hire you if you have it in your system.

Following that line of thinking, unless you just can't understand or accept the science (in which case nursing probably isn't the field for you), patients and families should have the right to know your vaccination status if they want because it does potentially affect them directly. The kind of nurse that doesn't want anyone to know their vax status probably wouldn't mind hiding if they had a scratchy throat or congestion or fever either.

I think overall I agree on a philosophical level since we’ve seen in history how mandating certain things can go wrong, and it’s not bad to be critical of our governments.

Though I feel like with the Covid vaccine it is more than personal choice of what to put in the body as it’s a public health issue that can affect many others very easily, and affect hospitals and care homes which hurts people without Covid.

 

I also agree that businesses are generally allowed to do their own thing as long as they aren’t super spreaders. Just like some require vaccines some may not want, and as long as people can reasonably avoid that business if they choose they can do what they want. Though I know some industries like the cruise lines WANT to mandate vaccinations but Florida is making it difficult.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

9 hours ago, sergel02 said:

I think overall I agree on a philosophical level since we’ve seen in history how mandating certain things can go wrong, and it’s not bad to be critical of our governments.

Though I feel like with the Covid vaccine it is more than personal choice of what to put in the body as it’s a public health issue that can affect many others very easily, and affect hospitals and care homes which hurts people without Covid.

 

I also agree that businesses are generally allowed to do their own thing as long as they aren’t super spreaders. Just like some require vaccines some may not want, and as long as people can reasonably avoid that business if they choose they can do what they want. Though I know some industries like the cruise lines WANT to mandate vaccinations but Florida is making it difficult.

"Covid is more than personal choice".....well said.  We are all adults and adults know that sometimes you just have to suck it up to avoid endangering others.  And these people who all of a sudden are prissy about what they put in their bodies!  We are already exposed daily to toxins and willingly ingest them and apply them to our bodies without question.  Do you hear any men who have formed facebook groups to question if Viagra was rendered "safe" before it was put on the market?

[NurseSpeedy, ADN, LPN, RN]

On 7/31/2021 at 11:50 AM, toomuchbaloney said:

We will have mandates because some people will refuse to do what is right and correct and patriotic without a mandate. We are always governed by the rules needed to motivate the least motivated, the least patriotic, or the least altruistic.

Heck, I got the vaccine as soon as I could so that I wouldn’t be the one killing everyone and so that I would not end up dead. I thought a lot of others would be the same. Crazy that a vaccine and a pandemic has become a political power struggle.

[Robmoo, ADN, BSN, RN]

On 7/27/2021 at 10:51 AM, toomuchbaloney said:

Are you indicating that you are unaware of the relationship between vaccination status and vaccine preventable disease? Do you need an explanation or do you want to look it up?

Here is some light reading.  The employer has no right to divulge medical information.

https://www.CDC.gov/phlp/publications/topic/HIPAA.html

 

[Robmoo, ADN, BSN, RN]

I was watching an interview between ZDoggMD and Dr Paul Offit MD and Professor of Vaccinology.  This virus is not going anywhere.  A decision not to get vaccinated is by default a decision to gain immunity "the old fashioned way."  Their exact wording were "the natural way."  However, "the natural way." sounds like a good thing when in this situation it is a roll of the dice.  So I like the old fashioned way. 

Are any of you old enough that your parents sent you to play will a playmate who had chicken pox so that you could catch it and "get it over with?"

[emtb2rn, BSN, RN, EMT-B]

9 minutes ago, Robmoo said:

I was watching an interview between ZDoggMD and Dr Paul Offit MD and Professor of Vaccinology.  This virus is not going anywhere.  A decision not to get vaccinated is by default a decision to gain immunity "the old fashioned way."  Their exact wording were "the natural way."  However, "the natural way." sounds like a good thing when in this situation it is a roll of the dice.  So I like the old fashioned way. 

Are any of you old enough that your parents sent you to play will a playmate who had chicken pox so that you could catch it and "get it over with?"

Not a great analogy. You are aware that deaths from chicken pox were somewhere around 120 annually in 1994, pre-vaccination, right? Your approach is “we’ve always done it this way”. Not anymore, because, you know, research. Thanks science. 

[GrumpyRN, NP]

34 minutes ago, Robmoo said:

Are any of you old enough that your parents sent you to play will a playmate who had chicken pox so that you could catch it and "get it over with?"

Yes, and I'm also old enough to remember how that went with Polio, Smallpox and TB and before that the plague.

That is a stupid analogy as chickenpox is a "minor" disease (I am using minor advisedly) that was much better to catch if you are young but still could cause problems. At the time WE HAD NO CHOICE! Catch these "childhood diseases" in childhood or catch them in adulthood with the increase in severity.

Far better to prevent it (and perhaps eradicate it) by vaccination.

https://www.CDC.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html

https://www.CDC.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html

https://www.CDC.gov/rubella/about/complications.html

 

[Horseshoe, BSN, RN]

43 minutes ago, Robmoo said:

Are any of you old enough that your parents sent you to play will a playmate who had chicken pox so that you could catch it and "get it over with?"

What an absolutely ridiculous analogy.