Something interesting I've noticed is that with undergraduate education although many justify the huge tuition they have paid for their uber expensive big name teaching hospital affiliated university BSN is it doesn't really make that much of a difference. I have done quite well with my community college start and have worked a major medical centers in the Baltimore/DC area as an undergraduate ADN and BSN.
However with NP education the reputation of the school does seem to matter. Where I work unless there is a compelling reason they quietly ignore resumes from three of the big name, "As Seen on TV", for profit schools. I work with one excellent NP who won't precept students from certain schools due to bad experiences with totally unprepared students.
Is that what others are finding? Does our NP pedigree matter?
Psych Guy's thoughts regarding school, training, and my choice of profession:
1. When I finished college (not nursing but what I call my college education), I needed a job, and ultimately stumbled into my previous profession, loved it, and then eventually began to realize I liked the heat of the moment more than where I was going so I dediced to become a PA. What?!
2. Even 5-10 years ago, PAs were still a new, unrecognized animal in my state, and the only program was at a Lutheran university with something around 40k in tuition. "Ain't nobody got time for that."
3. I tooled around, working, and thought well medical school is too much time commitment, I've got a life, I know what it's like to have an income with a surplus, have the time to go out and eat, take vacations, etc so committing to medical school PLUS residency was out of the question.
4. I examined the next best option and found myself intrigued by pharmacy school. At the time, people were doing pharmacy residencies but it wasn't the expectation people seem to have so I thought I could manage three years of school and a fourth school year of interships. Eh. So I made a gamble. I completely quite my job, and tried to live off of a part-time minimum wage job, for two months taking organic chemistry over a summer. That was pretty intense, and it dawned on me one day that I was about to drag my cocky chem prof out the backdoor and curb stomp for being such a jerk when I decided to drop chem II and reevalute my life.
5. On an impulse, as clear as I can remember putting on my socks this morning, I called the school's nursing department and said "Hey, I'm thinking of becoming a nurse practitioner, can you help me." I was told "Well, it just so happens we're starting a new BSN program in three weeks. Here's the prereqs." This happened to be the nurse dept. chair that answered the phone, and so I told her I was an almuni and over the past couple of years I'd been taking a myriad of science classes (part for fun, part for my own inclinations for some graduate level medical study). She dialed up my transcripts and said literally, "Well, you've got everything you need except nutrition. If you want in you're in. I'll have my secretary mail you an application you're required to fill out. Just mail it back. Your advisor will be "Dr. *****. Meet her in a week, and I'll see you on your first day."
6. I got another full-time position in my previous profession, started undergraduate nursing, and was totally disenchanted by the crap they were teaching. We took pharmacology which was interesting but pharm-lite, an assessment course shallower than what I'd done as a paramedic 12 years prior (paramedic wasn't my profession), foundations (washing, bed changing, pooping, peeing), and something else frivolous. I considered dropping out. I'd sacraficed a lot so with my family's encouragement I persisted. Three semesters later I graduated and a couple of weeks later I started NP school." I worked as a RN for just the duration of NP school, and when I graduated I quite, took a 10 week vacation, and started my NP job.
7. I really like what I do. I mean it's really a good job, and I'm given all the opportunity I could want. It's a collaborative state, but I have no supervision and we don't really collaborate. He just told me "do whatever you want" so I do. He said "it's your clinic" so I run it like it is.
8. Would I rather be a psychiatrist? You can bet your undies I would. For my level of experience, I'm showing to be really good at my work. Efficacy reigns. However, my collaborator/friend knows infinitely more about this field than I do. I envy his knowledge, and I'm busting tail to learn what he knows. My wife likes that I'm an avid reader but detests that I can grab a book, retreat to the cave, and come out trying to talk about some enzymatic action.
9. Would I have rather gone to PA school? You bet. From the outside looking in it's a better program. They're better prepared clinically. They're trained generally, and I want that. Granted, they don't really get into psych, but I could've probably found another niche.
10. Do I regret not pursuing pharmacy? Heck no. That's the most overwork, burdened set of professionals I've ever met. They're ALWAYS on the phone, and I can't stand talking on the phone.
11. Taking it back, did my school have a good reputation? I don't know. The College of Medicine does for sure. They're research quality is very great, and they're affiliated with one of the top two children's hospitals in the nation. Now, I only began learning about kids when I began seeing kids, and my NP training revolved almost entirely around paper writing (which I'm even better at) and placating the dean (which I'm not really good at). I saw one set of faculty get tossed and a new one pushing fMRI and psychobiology come in (what I want) and the therapy-oriented, hugs and papers folks scrape their nose on the pavement when they got the boot from the ivory tower. I have no inkling of awareness on how the College of Nursing ranks, but I do know the university name carries them and they're evolving to become better. I went to grad school/NP training there because it was the only state program. Like another said, moving and financing out of state NP training (or PA training for that matter) wouldn't have been worth it. I'd have gone anywhere (in the US) for med school though.
We agree. My first year of the program was spent studying fluff courses about Watson and Orem. My blood boiled as we reviewed nursing theory, which isn't based on science. I NEEDED more science and and preparation for patient assessment, diagnosis, and treatment. If we, as NPs, plan to compete with other healthcare providers we must have the ability to know science-not simply regurgitate nursing theories.
I know there are PA schools with MD and Pharm D lecturers. I am unsure if NP schools practice this but it would most certainly be beneficial for core classes.
I know there are PA schools with MD and Pharm D lecturers. I am unsure if NP schools practice this but it would most certainly be beneficial for core classes.
Exactly.
I want to add something about core science. I never took biochem in college (my education before nursing). I know it's not really ever required with pre/nursing. However, I've got to say, after being a fan of the -ologies and studying pharmacology, etc. the biochem background would be exceedingly beneficial. How do I know? I bought a used med school biochem book and read it and had a lot of "ah ha" moments. It's not the kind of thing you remember long-term, but I think if you could horizontally align those two subjects or require a passable understanding of it then we'd be a bit more slanted into the whys and hows we do things. Beyond pharm, it's quite applicable to physiology as well.
I want to add something about core science. I never took biochem in college (my education before nursing). I know it's not really ever required with pre/nursing. However, I've got to say, after being a fan of the -ologies and studying pharmacology, etc. the biochem background would be exceedingly beneficial. How do I know? I bought a used med school biochem book and read it and had a lot of "ah ha" moments. It's not the kind of thing you remember long-term, but I think if you could horizontally align those two subjects or require a passable understanding of it then we'd be a bit more slanted into the whys and hows we do things. Beyond pharm, it's quite applicable to physiology as well.
I have a med school anatomy, pathology, physiology and histology book. The usual names like Robbins and Goljan. They are all very informative and interesting.
usually the people who say that his or her nurse practitioner education was an excellent education are the ones who are a walking time bomb. the overused term -you don't know what you don't know- applies here.
pick up board review book for usmle or comlex and you'll get a good education.
I agree with dranger and pych man, if you have never looked through med school curriculum you should walk to the book store and read more before touting nurse practitioners are well educated.- some are, but they took further steps than offered by his or her NP program to achieve that status.
Could we use less fluff and more medical/"ology" type classes? Most definitely! But there are still programs out there that give an excellent education.
My program uses medical text books (i.e. Harrison's IM; Critical Care Medicine, etc) not written for NP programs. And I had a PharmD who taught our advanced pharmacology course. And we rotate through specialties (for clinical) every 6 weeks like many residents.
Could we use less fluff and more medical/"ology" type classes? Most definitely! But there are still programs out there that give an excellent education.
My program uses medical text books (i.e. Harrison's IM; Critical Care Medicine, etc) not written for NP programs. And I had a PharmD who taught our advanced pharmacology course. And we rotate through specialties (for clinical) every 6 weeks like many residents.
I feel like my NP curriculum is kind of like nursing school amplified. Everything I liked about my nursing school experience (pathophys and pharm, essentially) is even better in my program. PharmDs teach our pharm classes, MDs lecture regularly, and we have a class with the psych residents (a rotating psych lecture series). All good things. We don't rotate through specialties, though.
On the other hand, all of the fluffy stuff from nursing school is also magnified. The program includes classes on leadership, healthcare policy development, healthcare system analysis, and health economics. That's four classes in my psych program where we don't directly discuss anything related to my actual practice - it's all theory. You wanna irritate me? Tell me I have to analyze the possible effects of a proposed healthcare bill on public health using some esoteric model when I ought to be learning something relevant to my practice.
I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but I feel like there's a self-consciousness in nursing that drives programs to tell us, "Nurses are leaders... please believe us." I was a scientist before I was a nurse, and scientists don't become leaders by taking classes on leadership. You want to work in a lab? Get your BS. You want to run someone else's lab? Learn more science and get your MS. You want your own lab? Learn even more science and get your PhD. Instead of actually earning respect (by being trained more thoroughly as clinicians), we're learning the theory of earning respect and hoping that amounts to the same thing. It bugs me.
Wait a minute are you insinuating there is something wrong with brand new BSN grads teaching undergraduate clinicals or newly minted NPs who haven't practiced a day in their life teaching NP courses?
That seems to be the trend at some of the well respected universities in the Baltimore/Washington DC area.
its always going to be difficult to progress the field of nursing as long as the word nurse is in our title. I mean look at the wikipedia definition of 'nurse' (the verb, which i won't copy paste) and engineer
An engineer is a professional practitioner of engineering, concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics, and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical, societal and commercial problems.
or the word/term physician, or scientist, etc.
The word nurse, while nothing is wrong with the word itself, spikes a different set of reactions when heard than the above stated words. It is sort of like to a less extent, attempting to doctorize the field of 'nurse,' trying to doctorize medical assisting, custodial science (I have heard this term before), truck driving (Nothing against truckers, i can barely back up my F-150 much less a semi, that takes more skill than I can imagine for real), etc.
Again there is nothing wrong with any of these fields, and I have done medical assisting and custodial work while in high school and college (along with fast food work). but it seems everybody wants to make a doctorate out of his or her profession. The unfortunate case is, when this is attempted, people take a small amount of knowledge and blow it out of useful proportion (lol nursing textbooks) just in an attempt to justify their doctorialness (probably not a word).
The world needs expanded knowledge, but not in the self-centered way to just progress a field which may not need as much bloated progression as many of the doctor of nursing degrees tout.
If we want useful programs the programs have to offer something USEFUL at the doctoral level, not just fluff to sound smart (as I stated above).
It also seems as if there is much overlap with nursing degrees with other professions, (nursing informatics with generalized information technology, nursing management with the MBA, nurse practitionering with physicians, and it goes on.
It is too confusing, and a sad, pathetic attempt to justify the supposed difficulty of our profession.
On another note, they also offer masters in respiratory therapy and such, not really sure what thats worth but from all my respiratory friends they say its just a money sink to put another paper on the wall.
Oh what shall we do to fix this jumbled mess of 'advanced nursing degrees?'
PG2018
1,413 Posts
Psych Guy's thoughts regarding school, training, and my choice of profession:
1. When I finished college (not nursing but what I call my college education), I needed a job, and ultimately stumbled into my previous profession, loved it, and then eventually began to realize I liked the heat of the moment more than where I was going so I dediced to become a PA. What?!
2. Even 5-10 years ago, PAs were still a new, unrecognized animal in my state, and the only program was at a Lutheran university with something around 40k in tuition. "Ain't nobody got time for that."
3. I tooled around, working, and thought well medical school is too much time commitment, I've got a life, I know what it's like to have an income with a surplus, have the time to go out and eat, take vacations, etc so committing to medical school PLUS residency was out of the question.
4. I examined the next best option and found myself intrigued by pharmacy school. At the time, people were doing pharmacy residencies but it wasn't the expectation people seem to have so I thought I could manage three years of school and a fourth school year of interships. Eh. So I made a gamble. I completely quite my job, and tried to live off of a part-time minimum wage job, for two months taking organic chemistry over a summer. That was pretty intense, and it dawned on me one day that I was about to drag my cocky chem prof out the backdoor and curb stomp for being such a jerk when I decided to drop chem II and reevalute my life.
5. On an impulse, as clear as I can remember putting on my socks this morning, I called the school's nursing department and said "Hey, I'm thinking of becoming a nurse practitioner, can you help me." I was told "Well, it just so happens we're starting a new BSN program in three weeks. Here's the prereqs." This happened to be the nurse dept. chair that answered the phone, and so I told her I was an almuni and over the past couple of years I'd been taking a myriad of science classes (part for fun, part for my own inclinations for some graduate level medical study). She dialed up my transcripts and said literally, "Well, you've got everything you need except nutrition. If you want in you're in. I'll have my secretary mail you an application you're required to fill out. Just mail it back. Your advisor will be "Dr. *****. Meet her in a week, and I'll see you on your first day."
6. I got another full-time position in my previous profession, started undergraduate nursing, and was totally disenchanted by the crap they were teaching. We took pharmacology which was interesting but pharm-lite, an assessment course shallower than what I'd done as a paramedic 12 years prior (paramedic wasn't my profession), foundations (washing, bed changing, pooping, peeing), and something else frivolous. I considered dropping out. I'd sacraficed a lot so with my family's encouragement I persisted. Three semesters later I graduated and a couple of weeks later I started NP school." I worked as a RN for just the duration of NP school, and when I graduated I quite, took a 10 week vacation, and started my NP job.
7. I really like what I do. I mean it's really a good job, and I'm given all the opportunity I could want. It's a collaborative state, but I have no supervision and we don't really collaborate. He just told me "do whatever you want" so I do. He said "it's your clinic" so I run it like it is.
8. Would I rather be a psychiatrist? You can bet your undies I would. For my level of experience, I'm showing to be really good at my work. Efficacy reigns. However, my collaborator/friend knows infinitely more about this field than I do. I envy his knowledge, and I'm busting tail to learn what he knows. My wife likes that I'm an avid reader but detests that I can grab a book, retreat to the cave, and come out trying to talk about some enzymatic action.
9. Would I have rather gone to PA school? You bet. From the outside looking in it's a better program. They're better prepared clinically. They're trained generally, and I want that. Granted, they don't really get into psych, but I could've probably found another niche.
10. Do I regret not pursuing pharmacy? Heck no. That's the most overwork, burdened set of professionals I've ever met. They're ALWAYS on the phone, and I can't stand talking on the phone.
11. Taking it back, did my school have a good reputation? I don't know. The College of Medicine does for sure. They're research quality is very great, and they're affiliated with one of the top two children's hospitals in the nation. Now, I only began learning about kids when I began seeing kids, and my NP training revolved almost entirely around paper writing (which I'm even better at) and placating the dean (which I'm not really good at). I saw one set of faculty get tossed and a new one pushing fMRI and psychobiology come in (what I want) and the therapy-oriented, hugs and papers folks scrape their nose on the pavement when they got the boot from the ivory tower. I have no inkling of awareness on how the College of Nursing ranks, but I do know the university name carries them and they're evolving to become better. I went to grad school/NP training there because it was the only state program. Like another said, moving and financing out of state NP training (or PA training for that matter) wouldn't have been worth it. I'd have gone anywhere (in the US) for med school though.