Something interesting I've noticed is that with undergraduate education although many justify the huge tuition they have paid for their uber expensive big name teaching hospital affiliated university BSN is it doesn't really make that much of a difference. I have done quite well with my community college start and have worked a major medical centers in the Baltimore/DC area as an undergraduate ADN and BSN.
However with NP education the reputation of the school does seem to matter. Where I work unless there is a compelling reason they quietly ignore resumes from three of the big name, "As Seen on TV", for profit schools. I work with one excellent NP who won't precept students from certain schools due to bad experiences with totally unprepared students.
Is that what others are finding? Does our NP pedigree matter?
I don't know. I've run across some nurses with training from "Excelsior College." I had undergrad faculty with MSNs from U. Phoenix and Walden. It's really all ridiculous, but in the end a hospital wants a licensed person who will break their back for minimal cost. I don't think most hospitals really care if the nurse is educated. I found most weren't.
My graduate alma mater was the only one in the state offering psychiatry as a NP specialty. For that reason, you can best most PMHNPs here went there. I ran across a psych CNS from another state when I was doing rotations at the VA, and she prescribed the oldest array of FGAs and little else. I'm sure it was personal preference. I think "thiothixene" was her favorite word. Beyond that, I can't vouch for any other institutions. Not too many years back, my state U's PMHNP program (also at a rather well reputed university hospital) was pretty craptastic, and I entered it as the old school was going out and the new one was coming in. At the time, it was very theoretical and psychosocial and quite devoid of practical psychobiology.
Open book tests va closed book test schools nuff said. You can't build a foundation without memorizing a large amount of facts first. The usual defense of open book tests is usually that memorizing doesn't teach students to conceptualize information and memorizing is a low level of learning blah blah. These people who say this came from an open book test school.
Everything in bold is actually correct. Zenman, former Assistant professor and test question writer for several universities.
Moving for NP school is not an option, maybe for medical school but not NP school. Best option for me was an online state school that offered a MSN and my specialty choice.
I'm curious why you feel medical school would be worth a move, but not NP school? Is it because of the program length?
I lived in a state that doesn't have a B&M school with an ACNP program. So I moved. I'm hoping it pays off in the end...but who knows!
I'm curious why you feel medical school would be worth a move, but not NP school? Is it because of the program length?
I lived in a state that doesn't have a B&M school with an ACNP program. So I moved. I'm hoping it pays off in the end...but who knows!
I'm not Dranger, , but if I wasn't so old, or was more mature as a young person, I definitely would have done med school rather than nursing. As I've said a million times I feel our education is sorely lacking compared to the medical model especially with patho and pharmacology. The time and money I wasted on all the nursing fluff classes still make my blood boil. The APRNs who insist those courses are so valuable are likely the ones making only $80,000 a year, taking vitals and still assisting with ADLs. Its probably my personality type but I operate as a physician and my goal is to succinctly focus on the diagnostics and prescribing not so much on the brow mopping or breastfeeding.
There are other programs that use a hybrid approach. Drexel does this for their NP program. I live 3 hours from Philadelphia so attending classes fulltime is an issue. They have a distance learning building in my area that you can go to class from there but the majority of the classes are online. I know for a few of the classes you are required to go to campus for a few days to complete competency classes.
I'm not Dranger, , but if I wasn't so old, or was more mature as a young person, I definitely would have done med school rather than nursing. As I've said a million times I feel our education is sorely lacking compared to the medical model especially with patho and pharmacology. The time and money I wasted on all the nursing fluff classes still make my blood boil. The APRNs who insist those courses are so valuable are likely the ones making only $80,000 a year, taking vitals and still assisting with ADLs. Its probably my personality type but I operate as a physician and my goal is to succinctly focus on the diagnostics and prescribing not so much on the brow mopping or breastfeeding.
I would have too! And totally agree with you! But I was curious why Dranger felt an NP program wasn't worth moving for.
Whether it's adequate training or not- it's all we've got right now. If I'm going to be doing a lot of the same things an MD does- I think it's worth moving for a program that is most likely to get me prepared for that.
There is much more to taking good care of people than just diagnosing and prescribing, and this is probably why NP outcomes have matched physician outcomes in many primary care measures. I do think if there were more quality NP programs, or if NP programs were held to a higher standard, those outcomes might even improve. If NP education (continues to) slide then the outcome studies will show it and NPs will be hurting for jobs.
I'm curious why you feel medical school would be worth a move, but not NP school? Is it because of the program length?
I lived in a state that doesn't have a B&M school with an ACNP program. So I moved. I'm hoping it pays off in the end...but who knows!
Online/hybrid programs are readily available. I am in the Army Reserves (would need to transfer units which is a pain), housing and have a stable job. For me to move would be a big headache that is not necessary.
Med school is a lot more difficult to get into (you go where you get accepted) and of course can not be done online. Both of those factors which would lead me to uproot and move.
I think the online vs b&m NP programs is an odd topic. The curriculum of NP programs in California are set by the BRN, not individual colleges. Therefore, all students are taking the same courses regardless of online or b&M. Also when we are done with the program, we will all sit for the same boards. Finally all of the NPs I've spoken to state while some employers may initially look at the school most will view performance and references to decide upon hiring an NP.
Therefore, all students are taking the same courses regardless of online or b&M. Also when we are done with the program, we will all sit for the same boards.
That doesn't mean that they are all the same, or that the student experience is the same. California is rather strict and that's a good thing, as other states are not, but there are important differences.
Learning to do a physical exam as a provider (at least in my opinion) is a hands-on and interactive experience, same for taking a history, or performing an arthrocentesis, or presenting a patient orally to a colleague.
And it is true that all NPs take a national certification exam (not always the "same boards" but similar). This is a minimum competency exam. While programs meeting minimum competency is important (and soem don't even do this, read around about pass rates), as a profession we should shoot for something far above minimum competency (again in my opinion).
And it is true that all NPs take a national certification exam (not always the "same boards" but similar). This is a minimum competency exam. While programs meeting minimum competency is important (and soem don't even do this, read around about pass rates), as a profession we should shoot for something far above minimum competency (again in my opinion).
And while I know there has to be a standardized way to assess minimum competency which is where the board exams come in being able to pass a standardized test has never impressed me. I happen to test well, doesn't mean I'm all that smart just that I have minimal test anxiety and am able to answer questions correctly even if I'm largely guessing. I am confident that if I had done an intensive study regimen for several months I could have passed any of the board exams I have ever taken without ever sitting in on a nursing lecture. Does that mean I would have been competent to work as a nurse or NP? Heck no so again to me passing boards isn't the holy grail especially when the questions on the boards for NPs are overflowing with, again my opinion, silly nursing fluff. My FNP was better than the PMH which was over run with therapy questions and minimal medication or laboratory questions. It was underwhelming as has been my entire graduate nursing experience and again I went to a well respected university.
The final new grad product is more about their experience and aptitude going in, their clinical experiences and their willingness to do self directed learning above and beyond the superficial information we learn in nursing school.
I think the online vs b&m NP programs is an odd topic. The curriculum of NP programs in California are set by the BRN, not individual colleges. Therefore, all students are taking the same courses regardless of online or b&M. Also when we are done with the program, we will all sit for the same boards. Finally all of the NPs I've spoken to state while some employers may initially look at the school most will view performance and references to decide upon hiring an NP.
I don't really care about online vs brick and mortar although once again I think we would be better served by staying closer to the medical model and you don't see med schools popping up everywhere, advertising on TV etc.
I'm guessing it depends on a few things like the climate in the area a student is going to practice, their contacts and reputation. Where I live there are a ton of high end well respected universities and so they can be a bit snobby when it comes to graduate education. The As Seen On TV schools do tend to get some scoffs based on a blind resume, and some bad experiences with grads from certain schools, although if the person is well known and well connected I doubt it would really matter.
, but if I wasn't so old, or was more mature as a young person, I definitely would have done med school rather than nursing. As I've said a million times I feel our education is sorely lacking compared to the medical model especially with patho and pharmacology. The time and money I wasted on all the nursing fluff classes still make my blood boil. The APRNs who insist those courses are so valuable are likely the ones making only $80,000 a year, taking vitals and still assisting with ADLs. Its probably my personality type but I operate as a physician and my goal is to succinctly focus on the diagnostics and prescribing not so much on the brow mopping or breastfeeding.
PG2018
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I don't know. I've run across some nurses with training from "Excelsior College." I had undergrad faculty with MSNs from U. Phoenix and Walden. It's really all ridiculous, but in the end a hospital wants a licensed person who will break their back for minimal cost. I don't think most hospitals really care if the nurse is educated. I found most weren't.
My graduate alma mater was the only one in the state offering psychiatry as a NP specialty. For that reason, you can best most PMHNPs here went there. I ran across a psych CNS from another state when I was doing rotations at the VA, and she prescribed the oldest array of FGAs and little else. I'm sure it was personal preference. I think "thiothixene" was her favorite word. Beyond that, I can't vouch for any other institutions. Not too many years back, my state U's PMHNP program (also at a rather well reputed university hospital) was pretty craptastic, and I entered it as the old school was going out and the new one was coming in. At the time, it was very theoretical and psychosocial and quite devoid of practical psychobiology.