Maybe a stupid question..

[fjluce]

A male co worker was suspended possibly fired (we do not have all of the details) over sexual harassment. This was after complaints of many female co workers. Their complaints were he touched their arms or backs (above the waist) or offered massages. I don't think he meant any of this is a sexual nature I think he's just a touchy guy. No one ever said this makes me uncomfortable please stop. Instead they let it go on for months and finally decided to go to the manager. This guy wasn't a good nurse he was a new grad and still learning and making the effort to learn. I think more than anything he was trying to fit in with his female co workers and just didn't understand you can't just be going around giving back massages. We have a zero tolerance policy so we are speculating he has more than likely been fired. If no one told him this makes them uncomfortable and he wasn't making sexual advances along with these and not groping or saying offensive things along with this, is this fair? I just feel terrible for a guy who's career is potentially ruined who I don't think meant anything wrong just has a lack of professional boundaries and saw other people doing it and followed suite. Not that following suite when you are sexually harassing someone makes it ok, but since it wasn't out and out sexual harassment just touching backs and offering massages and not being told to stop and probably being terminated over which I think is just a reason to get rid of him. Thoughts on this? I'm probably not explaining good I've worked all night and am kinda tired and I'm not defending sexual harassment in any form, but I think this was just stupidity or naievity lack of experience in the professional world etc.

[Nurse SMS, MSN, RN]

The #metoo movement and the 17 students getting killed by a school shooter are BOTH important issues. One doesn't negate the other. Let's not muddle the issues. It is possible to care about both and for both to be equally passionate causes.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

Yeah if he was doing something that offended somebody then he should have been told directly. From what I've seen nurses don't do this. They talk ceaselessly behind each others back forever and turn what could have been a small problem easily addressed into a catastrophe. Of course with each telling of the tale the sins become more pronounced so if this went on for months I have little doubt that he is being talked about like a convicted sex offender behind his back while the same nurses are smiling to his face

This is pretty damned offensive. I assume you've heard of Harvey Weinstein and his ilk. If not, please do some reading before you make statements like this.

[LibraSunCNM, BSN, MSN, CNM]

Just reading this made me cringe. I know the type well, although I've only encountered "them" three times in my entire life. I guarantee you this has been brought to his attention before and he didn't get it. They never do. Hopefully he'll learn something from getting fired, but he'll probably just feel persecuted for being "himself".

This. If he doesn't automatically assume that he needs to get someone's consent to touch them, no matter if it's someone he knows well or a coworker he just met at a brand new job, then he has serious issues, plain and simple, and probably will never "get it."

[rn1965, ADN]

Some people take their personal space seriously. His problem was not getting to know the person well enough to determine if they would have a problem with him touching their arm or back. Offering a massage is crossing the line and is not appropriate for a work environment. He was moving way too fast to be accepted in a unit of females. I work with many females and have not touched their arms or back and definitely wouldn't offer a massage.

Being female, I understand that women feel uncomfortable with some touching and the guy should "know his audience" for sure. But, where has our common sense gone? Why are people so afraid to say, hey, that is not okay with me. I am guessing he (hopefully) would have stopped if just one person said, that bothers me.

Now, I know that work place harassment has gotten out of hand in some places, and I AM IN NO WAY SAYING that touching is okay in this case. I am only saying it is okay to stand up for yourself and say something is bothersome.

I know that some will tell me that it is NEVER okay to touch a co-worker, and he should have known better. But in this day and age, I feel like there is too much "I feel offended and want an apology" or just turning someone in, possibly harming his career, when maybe, just maybe, a simple, Hey, Joe, please do not touch me, would have done the trick.

[LibraSunCNM, BSN, MSN, CNM]

Being female, I understand that women feel uncomfortable with some touching and the guy should "know his audience" for sure. But, where has our common sense gone? Why are people so afraid to say, hey, that is not okay with me. I am guessing he (hopefully) would have stopped if just one person said, that bothers me.

Now, I know that work place harassment has gotten out of hand in some places, and I AM IN NO WAY SAYING that touching is okay in this case. I am only saying it is okay to stand up for yourself and say something is bothersome.

I know that some will tell me that it is NEVER okay to touch a co-worker, and he should have known better. But in this day and age, I feel like there is too much "I feel offended and want an apology" or just turning someone in, possibly harming his career, when maybe, just maybe, a simple, Hey, Joe, please do not touch me, would have done the trick.

I guess my argument would be that, in my opinion, we need to start teaching boys from an early age that "common sense" means you don't touch someone without their consent, rather than placing the blame/emphasis/stress on the female to speak up for herself. We should try to create a culture where women don't NEED to speak up for themselves on a regular basis, which is the status quo right now. I get your points, I really do, I just think that we need to change the framework around the issues.

[brownbook]

Where exactly did you get this out of anything posted here? Some, myself included, have suggested that this likely wasn't the best method for him to try and fit in. Some, myself included, have also suggested that if this indeed go on for months without anyone saying anything to him, that that was unjust as well.

I'm not sure where you are, but in my area it is still news. Even our local conservative talk radio station aired an anti-gun response from a local high school student during the news coverage, as well as news coverage of the upcoming march being planned for late next week I believe.

I was being sarcastic about my husband, I have got to stop trying to use sarcasm, it never works!

I am so glad to hear about the shootings and anti-gun talk still being in the news. It gladdens my heart.

[JKL33]

I don't think it has been established that it was "OK" when other people did it. But even if it WAS OK for others -- there's a big difference between Mike, whom I've known for years and whose wife is a close friend rubs my shoulders and someone I've just met and who gives me a bit of an "off" vibe starts rubbing me. If you want to call it "cool kids club", OK. But when someone I don't know well jumps in with un-asked-for and unwanted touching, it IS a hostile work environment.

Hi, Ruby -

Fair enough.

In that same vein, though, some people would be very uncomfortable in a working environment where other people enjoy and accept back-rubs from coworkers (I've seen and "heard" some that would probably qualify). What if someone finally comes forward and says, "They've all been making me uncomfortable with their little sicko back-rub sessions" - - do they all then get the immediate boot for creating an uncomfortable/hostile work environment? They should have known it was not appropriate for the workplace and could make some people feel uncomfortable. EEOC language includes a lot more than just typical "creep behavior."

I would feel very odd, angry on your behalf, if you were my friend and one of our coworkers went to managment and stated that you and Mike are engaging in backrubs that appear to be of a "very personal" nature and it is making them very uncomfortable and creating a hostile/uncomfortable work environment, and boom, that's it - you're both gone. I wouldn't say you should have known better in this day and age - I'd say someone should've put you two on notice.

But I don't think that would happen because in actual practice employers are very selective about the complaints they act upon, even if all of them pose a legitimate problem according to the law. Some may think that's fair and just; I don't.

Some of us read the OP and thought "Creep!" and some of us thought "Dummy!" I will need some convincing to understand why the better thing to do in the OP scenario isn't to inform this guy that a complaint has been made and effectively put him on first and final notice. This serves two purposes: It takes 100% seriously someone else's report that he has made them uncomfortable. And it covers the "dummy" possibility. Is that not fair?

[ICunursey, BSN, RN]

I've worked with some overly touchy feely people and I've always just come out and said that I do not like massages.I don't like receiving or giving them.I do not feel that a work place is the right environment for massages. The other posters are right that we should teach our boys about respecting people's personal space.This is a lesson that your colleague has learned now whether fired or suspended

[SpankedInPittsburgh, DNP, RN]

This is pretty damned offensive. I assume you've heard of Harvey Weinstein and his ilk. If not, please do some reading before you make statements like this.

Then be offended. Its an observation based on years of watching these behind the back assassinations pertaining to every possible subject matter regardless if they are work-connected or not. I'm in no way backing down from it or far from that saying I'm sorry for it. So far as I know no Hollywood mogul in a superior position of power was involved here just some inappropriate nurse who should have had the opportunity to correct his actions before they went on for months.

[Crystal-Wings, LVN]

People are so dumb. If you don't want to be touched SAY something, don't wait for months. That's why nobody can take all these women seriously in the media because they waited for months/years to say anything. As for the touchers, what on earth would make you think it was ok to just randomly start massaging the back of a coworker you don't know very well???

[SpankedInPittsburgh, DNP, RN]

I agree the thought of going to work and rubbing the backs of my coworkers makes me wanna hurl

[RNNPICU, BSN, RN]

I guess my argument would be that, in my opinion, we need to start teaching boys from an early age that "common sense" means you don't touch someone without their consent, rather than placing the blame/emphasis/stress on the female to speak up for herself. We should try to create a culture where women don't NEED to speak up for themselves on a regular basis, which is the status quo right now. I get your points, I really do, I just think that we need to change the framework around the issues.

While I agree with your sentiment of statement, it is not just boys we should be educating, it should be everyone. It is not just a male/female issue. ANYONE can be at fault. I am female and have had another female make me extremely uncomfortable with touch, and I am a touchy-feely type person, who has friends that we greet with a kiss on the check, just to give you an idea of my personal space boundariers.