Maybe a stupid question..

Nurses Professionalism

Published

A male co worker was suspended possibly fired (we do not have all of the details) over sexual harassment. This was after complaints of many female co workers. Their complaints were he touched their arms or backs (above the waist) or offered massages. I don't think he meant any of this is a sexual nature I think he's just a touchy guy. No one ever said this makes me uncomfortable please stop. Instead they let it go on for months and finally decided to go to the manager. This guy wasn't a good nurse he was a new grad and still learning and making the effort to learn. I think more than anything he was trying to fit in with his female co workers and just didn't understand you can't just be going around giving back massages. We have a zero tolerance policy so we are speculating he has more than likely been fired. If no one told him this makes them uncomfortable and he wasn't making sexual advances along with these and not groping or saying offensive things along with this, is this fair? I just feel terrible for a guy who's career is potentially ruined who I don't think meant anything wrong just has a lack of professional boundaries and saw other people doing it and followed suite. Not that following suite when you are sexually harassing someone makes it ok, but since it wasn't out and out sexual harassment just touching backs and offering massages and not being told to stop and probably being terminated over which I think is just a reason to get rid of him. Thoughts on this? I'm probably not explaining good I've worked all night and am kinda tired and I'm not defending sexual harassment in any form, but I think this was just stupidity or naievity lack of experience in the professional world etc.

Specializes in OB.
People are so dumb. If you don't want to be touched SAY something, don't wait for months. That's why nobody can take all these women seriously in the media because they waited for months/years to say anything. As for the touchers, what on earth would make you think it was ok to just randomly start massaging the back of a coworker you don't know very well??? :sarcastic:

They (I'm assuming you're referring to victims of Harvey Weinstein) waited for months/years to say something because they were scared. Someone in a position of enormous power put THEM in a situation that they felt they couldn't win. Some women DID speak up and were ignored and/or retaliated against. Women who didn't speak up had to weigh having their professional careers effectively roadblocked. To hear people like you make statements like this blaming the women makes me unspeakably offended. Men who prey on women are to blame, not women!!!

In the case of the OP, he was maybe just dumb and maybe a predator, there's no way to know. But again, the burden should be on HIM to control his behavior, not on women to have to complain about it.

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Specializes in OB.
While I agree with your sentiment of statement, it is not just boys we should be educating, it should be everyone. It is not just a male/female issue. ANYONE can be at fault. I am female and have had another female make me extremely uncomfortable with touch, and I am a touchy-feely type person, who has friends that we greet with a kiss on the check, just to give you an idea of my personal space boundariers.

You are absolutely right! I stand corrected and completely agree.

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I should add he has also touched my back and given me a massage and I didn't feel at all threatened and they never asked the girls from the shift he actually works on if he made them feel uncomfortable.

Sounds like you're really going to miss him. Maybe he was a massage therapist in a previous life. :cat:

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Did he bring oil? :dummy1:

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Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
Hi, Ruby -

Fair enough.

In that same vein, though, some people would be very uncomfortable in a working environment where other people enjoy and accept back-rubs from coworkers (I've seen and "heard" some that would probably qualify). What if someone finally comes forward and says, "They've all been making me uncomfortable with their little sicko back-rub sessions" - - do they all then get the immediate boot for creating an uncomfortable/hostile work environment? They should have known it was not appropriate for the workplace and could make some people feel uncomfortable. EEOC language includes a lot more than just typical "creep behavior."

I would feel very odd, angry on your behalf, if you were my friend and one of our coworkers went to managment and stated that you and Mike are engaging in backrubs that appear to be of a "very personal" nature and it is making them very uncomfortable and creating a hostile/uncomfortable work environment, and boom, that's it - you're both gone. I wouldn't say you should have known better in this day and age - I'd say someone should've put you two on notice.

But I don't think that would happen because in actual practice employers are very selective about the complaints they act upon, even if all of them pose a legitimate problem according to the law. Some may think that's fair and just; I don't.

Some of us read the OP and thought "Creep!" and some of us thought "Dummy!" I will need some convincing to understand why the better thing to do in the OP scenario isn't to inform this guy that a complaint has been made and effectively put him on first and final notice. This serves two purposes: It takes 100% seriously someone else's report that he has made them uncomfortable. And it covers the "dummy" possibility. Is that not fair?

I'm just wondering how "everyone" knows for sure that "Creepy/Dummy" WASN'T put on notice. How do they know that he wasn't frolicking merrily through the disciplinary process for months? Management isn't supposed to let all of the interested bystanders know about someone's disciplinary status and no one else would know unless "Creepy/Dummy" told them -- something that he probably would have kept to himself.

As far as Mike and me engaging in "personal backrubs" -- not gonna happen. But if I WERE going to let someone rub my neck or my back or whatever for whatever reason at work (also not gonna happen), it would be one thing to let a friend rub the kink out of my shoulders and quite another to have someone I barely know sneak up and put his hands on me.

I will never forget the night that the entire crew had ordered sushi and a married surgeon (whose wife was well known to us and was about ten months pregnant) was entertaining a 20-something new grad nurse on his lap in the break room about the time we were all migrating in there to have dinner. I lost respect for him AND for her. It was definitely an uncomfortable workplace environment. And had "BOOM" you're both gone been the result of that, it would have been entirely warranted. I HAVE kissed my husband hello or goodbye while on hospital premises, but probably won't be doing that again.

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Specializes in Certified Vampire and Part-time Nursing Student.

I don't know but it sounds pretty inappropriate. This isn't a case of workers who know each other well making semi-inappropriate inside jokes and touching each other, he's just some guy that started working there touching female employees. Everyone has met and hates that one guy who is constantly touching/trying to touch coworkers and the female staff has to constantly fend him off, bleh it's creepy af

I'm just going to say, if he's some gay effeminate guy who is too used to being 'one of the girls' in his social life I can see this happening. But being gay doesn't negate the fact you shouldn't touch others if you don't know them enough to know they'll be completely okay with it. Honestly how does anyone become a nurse and have that much of a lack of social etiquette? It's crazy. I don't think the company overreacted, on the chance he really was a creeper letting him stay with a warning or even retraining from HR can create a hostile work environment very fast.

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Wow! This is a very hard situation. First, as a new grad, I barely had time to massage a cramp out of my own neck/back, let alone worry about whether or not my coworker was in pain. Second, you can't touch people. I am a survivor of child sexual abuse, I jump straight up when I am touched by someone unexpectedly or by someone I don't know. Granted, I don't speak for everyone. But, there is an awareness that some people may not be born with but should hone. Do I feel the guy should lose his job or have a sexual harassment mark on his record? Not this first time... But, he should be given a stern talking to, or whatever it is that this company does. Sad ( and good ) thing is, they can't really afford to take chances these days. It opens them up to expensive law suits. So, he just may have made himself the sacrifice to prove the 'no tolerance' policy. Still, there's a part of my gut that says, "he knows what he's doing but can't keep his hands to himself." There's just too much publicity these days to be that dumb.

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Specializes in Neuro.

Could he have honestly been naive, sure, maybe, anything is possible.

I do feel like this is something someone learns early on in the school yard. Keep your hands to yourself, you can't just touch other people, especially a male to female, maybe there is a double standard but let's face it, it's there for good reason. I've 4 brothers and all of them know better than to do something like this. Hard lesson for him to learn if he truly was unaware this was inappropriate.

I'm jaded having worked with many sex offenders though and having been victimized, not saying he is a sex offender, but more often than not, behavior like this is intentional under the guise of innocence. I'm skeptical of him being so innocent. Personally with my past & experience, I would have said something had I witnessed this behavior, like hey, keep your hands to yourself before you get fired buddy. But, also, not everyone is like me and willing or comfortable to say let up or back off. Then again, we don't know what actually happened. It only takes making one person uncomfortable as he has evidently learned.

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Regardless of if the women asked him to stop and regardless of how long someone has been there: you need to ask permission before touching anybody in the workplace. Period.

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I would get more uncomfortable with personal questions, how old are you, do you have a boyfriend more than a back massage.

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Specializes in Telemetry, Med-Surg, Peds.
Regardless of if the women asked him to stop and regardless of how long someone has been there: you need to ask permission before touching anybody in the workplace. Period.

Yes! Finally! No one should have to tell him this is wrong. It's not our responsibility as his co-workers. In orientation they lay it out, the rules, regulations, and laws regarding sexual harassment. Isn't it weird in these situations that people automatically assume everything is alright until someone says it's not. Not everyone is brave enough to pointedly say, "STOP!" Given the highlighted events re. sexual harassment these past few years it's amazing anyone would still behave like this.

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Specializes in Emergency, Telemetry, Transplant.
In orientation they lay it out, the rules, regulations, and laws regarding sexual harassment.

I don't think I have ever had it come up in orientation. However, every adult male in America today should know that he should not touch a coworker, let alone give a massage. There are those that do these things, but many still know it's wrong.

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