Is it true that a BSN will be mandatory soon?

medpsychRN · Feb 8, 2005

The idea of nurses having more credentials has been around since I was in nursing school back in 1970. Nurses equated degrees with respect. Today it's not uncommon for nurses to have their doctorate. A requirement to teach and for management positions. I truly believe if a doctorate was required for all nursing positions, there would be essentially no change in how nurses are treated. Disrespective MD's would remain disrespective. It would be a matter of a p****** contest as to who had the toughest time getting their degree and who knew more.

mattsmom81 · Feb 8, 2005

Do some of you here think there is NO merit for the unifying aspect of BSN as entry level?

I would hope entry level BSN requirements would at least get RN's 'on the same page' so the bickering can stop and some proactivity can begin. Perhaps its just a pipe dream but i would love to see it someday.

RN34TX · Feb 8, 2005

Do some of you here think there is NO merit for the unifying aspect of BSN entry level? Canada at least has a union...which is at least the start of organizied, collective bargaining. Most Candian nurses I have met say working conditions are better in Canada than in US hospitals. They have less jobs available for them up there, which is why they come to the US as travelers (plus they want the travel experience) At least that is what I seem to be hearing.

What Canadians have you been talking to? Every one I've worked with is here in TX to stay. The job opportunities are just not there in Canada. I've been told by the three that I work with now that there are no full time positions to be had there. Everyone is part-time to avoid paying benefits.

Plus Canada has a mandatory critical care course that must be taken by anyone seeking employment in critical care post RN school. It is one year long and offered only in Toronto. If you lived way over in Vancouver you'd have to pack up and move there just to get the eligibility to even seek employment in critical care. What kind of opportunity is that?

They are here for a reason and it's not the warmer climate.

medpsychRN · Feb 8, 2005

I'm sorry but I don't think having a degree is going to make much difference in regards to a union and collective bargaining. I think nurses are already on the same page. Better, safer staff to patient ratios, more money, opportunities for training are just a few things most nurses I think would love to have.

I really do work in a wonderful hospital. The majority of nurses have their BSN's or higher. I can tell you it hasn't done jack towards increasing our benefits.I think we need a Gloria Stienem for nurses! LOL!!

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Feb 8, 2005

Do some of you here think there is NO merit for the unifying aspect of BSN as entry level?
I would hope entry level BSN requirements would at least get RN's 'on the same page' so the bickering can stop and some proactivity can begin. Perhaps its just a pipe dream but i would love to see it someday.

I could care less what degree my coworkers have. I just care that they do their work and are capable and knowledgeable. And I have yet to see where a BSN has made any difference in those aspects.

Perhaps, we should strive for all nurses to be single, to get rid of all those fights over holiday schedules, and why some "should" work certain holidays, and others should not. Perhaps, we should require them all be of one politically party, so that "we are unified".

I don't believe so.

True unity transcends differences.

DutchgirlRN, ASN, RN · Feb 9, 2005

the majority of forum users are in the American system, The associate diploma is not a degree. Neither is a diploma. I'm also acutely aware that today's medical setting makes new and increasing demands of the nurse and from the information I have to hand, the US is still at the starting block.

In Australia a nurse must have a bachelors degree, that's fine, that's their rules.............not ours, here in the USA an associates is a degree and we enjoy the same freedoms to practice nursing as the BSN's. The diploma RN's are equally qualified to practice. There is no difference in our job descriptions nor in our rate of pay.

I worked hard for my associates and my "degree" is hanging on my bedroom wall to prove it.

I understand that you gave up a corporate job to be a CNA and go to nursing school? I will tell you that your attitude had better change. You may be able to shove people around in the corporate world but in the nursing world things don't work that way. Nurses stick together. Nurses are all about compassion. You cannot learn that in school no matter how many years you go to school. I find your posts abrasive, intolerable and just plain rude.

I would put the level of American nursing at the top. I don't know where you get such ridiculous information.

As for the original question: I've been a nurse for 29 years. First an LPN. For 29 years I have heard that LPN's will be phased out and RN's will be required to have a BSN. I don't see it happening in our lifetime. Not with the nursing shortage what it is.

medpsychRN · Feb 9, 2005

This is an excellent point. A Master's degree for a junior teacher is ludicrous. But citing sexist causes for an ailing market is a red herring.

In my response, I was referring to the BSN as a first (undergrad) degree not an additional one. Perhaps, given the forum climate (in that the majority of forum users are in the American system), I should have been clearer. The associate diploma is not a degree. Neither is a diploma. When registering in Australia or NZ (for example), the ADN is not considered to be a nursing qualification for registration nor are any of the other lesser qualifications. A close friend of mine, an American, suffered a huge shock to find that upon immigration to Australia that her quals were not sufficient enough for registration even though she had been working as a nurse in the US for some years, I have seen the gap first up. Yes, by all means let's do it for unity but you won't get that, not unless the organisations that represent nursing support this and elements of the nursing profession educate themselves about the ramifications of the degree system (and what a degree actually entails...there's a lot of false terminology out there). As I sit here writing, I don't want to be seemingly pompous about the distinction - after all, I'm an undergrad at the moment! - but just making the dileanation. For while I am venturing into nursing from a self-fulfilment perspective, I'm also acutely aware that today's medical setting makes new and increasing demands of the nurse and therefore also speak from a career advancement point of view too for in order to gain that competitive and marketable edge, you must be in the same race as everyone else and, from the information I have to hand, the US is still at the starting block.

Sorry! Nurses can be talked into all sorts of things (overtime, short staffed) I think mainly because we are women. Men wouldn't put up with half the stuff women put up with. Yes, there are more male nurses. But, not enough!

ADN here is a degree not a diploma. For a BSN, throw in some additional chemistry, stats and electives and you have a degree. Training (clinical time) is the same so I don't know how BSN's have better clinical skills. Same with MSN's (yes, I recognize there is clinical in your field of choice).

If you want to be competitive and marketable in the states, you better have some experience. MSn or not, you're not going to get a job in the MICU if you don't have any experience in that area.

MSN is mandatory for a management position where I work. If you want to teach you have to have a doctorate.

I worked in management for 20 years and have no desire to go back. 99% (LOL) of the time I like working with patients. It is the best part of the job.

I'm not sure what your statement about being at the starting block means. I'm guessing you are young and you made reference to still being in school. Get a few more years under your belt, get sick or have a family member become critically ill and trust me, you won't care if a MSN or BSN is caring for you/family. You're going to want to know if that person knows what they are doing.

rstewart · Feb 9, 2005

I totally agree with your post.
Nursing is not taking seriously because there are so many ways to become a nurse.
Then may I offer some modest proposals?
I suggest that there be only one route to the title/license Registered Nurse: the Associates Degree. Associates Degree prepared RNs have for decades demonstrated the ability to provide excellent patient care throughout the entire continuum of care. Even with the tremendous advances in technology we have witnessed, nurses prepared at that level have met every challenge. Additionally, such programs can deliver nurses to the bedside where they are most needed in a relatively short time, a particularly attractive feature during a shortage. Shorter programs result in lower cost which is likewise a benefit to society since many institutions of higher learning are highly subsidized. And for the student, in this day and age lower cost often translates to lower student loan debt to be repaid. This approach would also promote much needed diversity in Registered Nursing's ranks since history shows this level is more accessable to low income students and minorities. Since AD preparation is time proven with respect to successfully passing NCLEX and transitioning to successful bedside nursing practitioners, I see no valid reason why they should not retain the title Registered Nurse in an unaltered form. They are well educated to perform safe/competent and professional bedside nursing.
On the other hand, in my proposed educational model the BSN would cease to exist. In its stead I would have a program, three years in length which awarded a Masters degree with limited and understandable "tracks": Education & Research track, Clinical Specialist track, and an Administration/Management track. Application to these professional schools would be limited to AD prepared nurses only and they must have completed at least 3 years of hospital based nursing at the bedside. There will be no more individuals who go straight through to a Masters without demonstrating that they can successfully take care of patients; And no more accelerated programs for those with non nursing degrees. As described above, the road to nursing leadership would be proven competency as a Registered Nurse----in my view that requires both education and hands on experience. Those completing the Masters level program would have the opportunity to sit for certification examinations in their specialties. In turn, the Masters prepared, certified nurses would make application for an additional license to practice in their new role. The new titlies would in no way diminish the value of the Registered Nurse title as for example, Registered Professional Nurse (Masters) vs Registered Nurse (AD). Rather, the license will clearly define what work the Masters prepared nurse is certified to safely and competently perform.
Frankly, I see the BSN as neither fish nor fowl. It is said, for example, that it should be required for management positions. Yet, there is little in the curriculum to support this reasoning. There are no required accounting courses. And there are no required personnel management courses. No business law courses. The sad truth be known, that leadership rotation where a nurse shadows a manager etc. is often an exercise in the blind leading the blind. Similarly, in the area of research, an elementary statistics course and a limited exposure to experimental design do not a researcher make, nor even an informed reader. Time limitations result in a product of limited value except in the context of providing a background for still more research courses. And finally, in the case of clinical competency, I do not believe an argument can be made rationally that demonstrates the superiority of BSN prepared nurses over those otherwise prepared. But clearly there would be time in a 3 year program for Registered Nurses with 3 years+ experience to satisfy nursing's toughest critics.
So yes, I say, let's have but one entry point for the professional Registered Nurse-------but make that point the Associate's Degree.

Michele G. · Feb 9, 2005

I totally agree with your post.
Nursing is not taking seriously because there are so many ways to become a nurse.
Then may I offer some modest proposals?
I suggest that there be only one route to the title/license Registered Nurse: the Associates Degree. Associates Degree prepared RNs have for decades demonstrated the ability to provide excellent patient care throughout the entire continuum of care. Even with the tremendous advances in technology we have witnessed, nurses prepared at that level have met every challenge. Additionally, such programs can deliver nurses to the bedside where they are most needed in a relatively short time, a particularly attractive feature during a shortage. Shorter programs result in lower cost which is likewise a benefit to society since many institutions of higher learning are highly subsidized. And for the student, in this day and age lower cost often translates to lower student loan debt to be repaid. This approach would also promote much needed diversity in Registered Nursing's ranks since history shows this level is more accessable to low income students and minorities. Since AD preparation is time proven with respect to successfully passing NCLEX and transitioning to successful bedside nursing practitioners, I see no valid reason why they should not retain the title Registered Nurse in an unaltered form. They are well educated to perform safe/competent and professional bedside nursing.
On the other hand, in my proposed educational model the BSN would cease to exist. In its stead I would have a program, three years in length which awarded a Masters degree with limited and understandable "tracks": Education & Research track, Clinical Specialist track, and an Administration/Management track. Application to these professional schools would be limited to AD prepared nurses only and they must have completed at least 3 years of hospital based nursing at the bedside. There will be no more individuals who go straight through to a Masters without demonstrating that they can successfully take care of patients; And no more accelerated programs for those with non nursing degrees. As described above, the road to nursing leadership would be proven competency as a Registered Nurse----in my view that requires both education and hands on experience. Those completing the Masters level program would have the opportunity to sit for certification examinations in their specialties. In turn, the Masters prepared, certified nurses would make application for an additional license to practice in their new role. The new titlies would in no way diminish the value of the Registered Nurse title as for example, Registered Professional Nurse (Masters) vs Registered Nurse (AD). Rather, the license will clearly define what work the Masters prepared nurse is certified to safely and competently perform.
Frankly, I see the BSN as neither fish nor fowl. It is said, for example, that it should be required for management positions. Yet, there is little in the curriculum to support this reasoning. There are no required accounting courses. And there are no required personnel management courses. No business law courses. The sad truth be known, that leadership rotation where a nurse shadows a manager etc. is often an exercise in the blind leading the blind. Similarly, in the area of research, an elementary statistics course and a limited exposure to experimental design do not a researcher make, nor even an informed reader. Time limitations result in a product of limited value except in the context of providing a background for still more research courses. And finally, in the case of clinical competency, I do not believe an argument can be made rationally that demonstrates the superiority of BSN prepared nurses over those otherwise prepared. But clearly there would be time in a 3 year program for Registered Nurses with 3 years+ experience to satisfy nursing's toughest critics.
So yes, I say, let's have but one entry point for the professional Registered Nurse-------but make that point the Associate's Degree.
I agree
Michele

mattsmom81 · Feb 9, 2005

What Canadians have you been talking to? Every one I've worked with is here in TX to stay.

The ones I've worked with who stayed for a longer contract wanted to go back...to better working conditions, their union, etc. At first, yes, they liked the climate, etc...but in time they missed the better working environment.

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Feb 9, 2005

So yes, I say, let's have but one entry point for the professional Registered Nurse-------but make that point the Associate's Degree.

I like all of your ideas, too. A very close relative of mine is a Social Worker. She went to school for 4 years, made top grades in her class--and makes as much money as a CNA, as well as having clients who can be violent. So if Social Workers or teachers are any indication, education doesn't garner "respect."

This has been a general misconception of women since the Feminist Movement began, and coming out of the "dark ages," I can tell you all quite frankly that education is not the key driver in gaining "respect" for our profession.

Fiona59 · Feb 9, 2005

I've been hearing that BScN "will be manadatory" since the late 70's when I graduated high school. Even remember when the first programme for it started in my area.

It's still not manadatory nationally (across Canada). I really think if something this important is to change a profession then it should be mandated at a national level, not provincially or state by state. There should also be national requirements for admissions to the nursing schools. This would facilitate the transferring of courses if a student had to move from one area to another. Nothing is more frustrating than having to repeat a years worth of school because the "standards are different here".

What I have seen with the advent of BScN programmes only, is more people for the same nursing student spots, forcing the academic requirements well above what was considered acceptable for previous generations of nurses.

Seven years ago one college I know of, would admit you for a diploma education and let you upgrade your Gr. 12 Sciences at the same time. I know this because I was accepted but had to decline due to family reasons. The same school has gone over to BScN only and has over 1500 applications for the same 120 spots and require Gr. 12 math and science courses with over 80% averages. At one point they actually had higher enterance requirements than the two universities.