Is it true that a BSN will be mandatory soon?

SusanJean · Feb 12, 2005

I really find it hard to believe nurses are fighting tooth and nail to keep their education at the Associate Degree level!! It is mind boggeling!! It's like your'e all proud to be on the bottom rung of health care, because that is truly where you/we will be and remain if your/our stubborn ignorance towards higher education continues, as it has for the past 30 some years.
Education = Power.....PERIOD
You want higher pay, more prestige and respect from your colleagues and the public, you want more men in nursing......the answer is simple, more education!!!
Mandatory BSN for all nurses NOW!!!

The way you word it... I find it hard to disagree:) . Well said.

SmilingBluEyes · Feb 13, 2005

If a BSN is so "empowering", why are so many of these nurses emigrating faster than you can blink to other countries? Why is it, with the professional degree, they are not treated better? Does anyone here REALLY believe all-BSN entry will solve OUR issues here? I just don't. I think it's much more complicated than that alone. It's a great START,but is NOT the cure for what ails nursing in the USA.

MrsWampthang, BSN, RN · Feb 13, 2005

If i were seeking any service (ie. nursing, medical,taxes, etc) I would want the most educated professional providing that service to help me. So, yes having a BSN does command more respect than an ADN...

Anyone that completed their A.A.S then B.S.N feels more empowered.

An increased level of education enables some RNs to function more confidently. Being confident and knowledgeable about what you are doing decreases your chances of getiing disrespected.I am not saying that the "BSN on a nametag " will prevent you from getting disrespected. Anyone including the CEO of the hospital can be disrespected by another professional, patient, or family member.

Sorry, but I beg to differ. Who would you rather have taking care of you or one of your family members? A freshly graduated BSN with skills only having been practiced in clinicals? Or an ASN or Diploma nurse who has been a nurse for years and is extremely skillfull as well as knowledgeable? And as for a BSN feeling more confident and knowledgeable; again a seasoned ASN or diploma nurse could run circles around a freshly graduated BSN. I don't think a BSN behind your name will make you more confident than an ASN, Diploma nurse or even an LPN with years of experience. Confidence comes from experience not classroom study. In nursing, skills are just as important as knowledge so don't count out that ASN or Diploma nurse as someone you wouldn't want taking care of you or a family member. Just my two cents.

Pam

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Feb 13, 2005

ASN or diploma nurse could run circles around a freshly graduated BSN. I don't think a BSN behind your name will make you more confident than an ASN, Diploma nurse or even an LPN with years of experience. Confidence comes from experience not classroom study.

I agree.

Personally, I was raised to believe the more education, the better. But there's that clinical aspect to nursing that you simply can't get in a classroom.

I fully believe that the ADN programs of today compare very well to the BSN programs of years ago.

I have also come to believe that secondary education has become quite a racket in and of itself. But I won't go there. Suffice to say that I've never heard any educator talk about the cost-effectiveness of education to occupational goal. In other words, how much money will you make with your BSN over the ADN throughout your lifetime? How much "bang for your buck?"

No, the answer will always be to get more education. No matter what the field, no matter what the discrepancy is between education cost and salary limits, the educator will always claim that more is better.

It might make the college money, but you'll be out in the cold trying to pay those student loans on a staff nursing salary.

This is why I believe the ADN provides the best entry point. I also think few of you will agree with me because quite a lot of you are intimidated or overly impressed by all the letters behind nurses' names. I am too old for that elitist garbage. As a culture, we are taught to revere those among us who are formally educated, but is that reverence really warranted?

I don't think so. You might take a few moments and really examine this question, really look at your attitudes about education.

How much formal education is "enough"? I think it's "enough" when the interest in a chosen field or profession sparks an interest to learn more about a subject. I don't have to enroll in formal, costly college classes to be well-rounded. I'm always reading about nursing--new studies, new treatments, or reviewing patho. I have literally hundreds of books on various topics in nursing and probably have the equivalent of a BSN.

Nurses have to keep their education up-to-date as few other professions do, and many of us actively seek knowledge in an informal way that is every bit as relevant and every bit as respect-garnering experientially, as the formally educated BSN.

At the root of the problem of respect is that nursing is considered a soft science compared to say, geology. No amount of education is going to change the basic perspective of nursing among the sciences.

I used to love debates like this, but I find that I don't have the energy to keep up any more, so this will probably be my last post on this topic. I just wanted to throw a couple more things out there for your thoughtful consideration.

RN34TX · Feb 13, 2005

[quote name=DeniseRNBSN

Anyone can go to school for 1 to 2 years and be taught to perform tasks, but the BSN goes further and your thinking skills go beyond task oriented behavior.

Denise RN, BSN, CCRN[/quote]

I have 2 colleagues who are ADN's about to graduate with their BSN's. 3 others on my unit have recently obtained their BSN's after being ADN's for a period of time. They all say the same thing. That I'd be foolish not to do the same thing because if you can get through an ADN program, the BSN completion will seem like a breeze.

Your statement about anyone being able to do an LPN or ADN program and be trained to "perform tasks" would be like my saying that anyone can take some extra general ed courses i.e. statistics, chemistry, etc. along with some nursing theory and call themselves a BSN.

And to those who posted about being able to quote Shakespear or give a powerpoint presentation (which are apparantly much needed skills for a nurse that us non-BSN's do not have) if you tried to impress me with that stuff as your patient I would look at you and say:

"And this is supposed to impress upon me that you will take better care of me than your LPN and ADN Colleagues?" Big deal.

I was taught a lot more than to "perform tasks" in my LPN and ADN programs.

I'm still trying to teach these same "tasks" to the newer BSN's on my floor (who were not previously nurses in any capacity) who apparantly still are not catching on despite their BSN education.

I'm sorry, but when I'm a patient, I need a nurse who knows what they are doing, not a nurse who can quote and discuss famous literature and give powerpoint presentations with their "well rounded" education.

medpsychRN · Feb 13, 2005

You go girl!

rstewart · Feb 13, 2005

I used to love debates like this, but I find that I don't have the energy to keep up any more, so this will probably be my last post on this topic. I just wanted to throw a couple more things out there for your thoughtful consideration.

I agree with your ideas, but sadly I see little argument or debate from the pro mandatory BSN point of view. For example, in an earlier post I listed several supportable reasons why associates preparation should continue as the entry to professional nursing practice. Rather than attempting to refute those points, the solitary response was essentially "I can't believe you hold those views, now let me repeat our position once more ad nauseum."

Clearly, I am not opposed to education beyond the associates degree level. In fact, my earlier proposal calls for a no nonsense program which awards a Masters Degree upon completion. Entry requirements would include an associates degree in nursing and a minimum of three years hospital nursing experience. There would be no accelerated programs which confer a Masters Degree upon individuals who have never demonstated competency in taking care of patients in today's heathcare environment.

I do oppose attempts to minimize the decades long contributions made by associates degree prepared nurses and the competencies which made those contributions possible. And I think it ill advised to ignore the benefits of a less lengthy preparation. Requiring an associates degree in nursing for all would serve to provide the commonality of experience lacking today in our profession while at the same time realistically address the need for professional nurses at the bedside.

Of course I would expect a less than enthusiastic response to my proposed model from university nursing academia. The healthcare economy would force unprecendented accountabilty regarding the product which they produce. If associates degree preparation is assigned the "job" so to speak of providing registered nurses at the bedside, we might examine in a more focused manner what post associates education truly provides. That is, how much do all heathcare stakeholders truly value what is taught post associates, and what is the real need? How many nurse practitioners, managers, researchers, case managers, educators etc. do we require and what are we willing to pay them?

As individuals and as a society we have limited resources with respect to healthcare and otherwise. In my view to require additional education beyond what has been shown to be more than adequate would be wasteful. There is certainly a need for education extending beyond the associates degree, but I would suggest that the nature and extent of that need requires examination.

mattsmom81 · Feb 13, 2005

I could care less what degree my coworkers have. I just care that they do their work and are capable and knowledgeable. And I have yet to see where a BSN has made any difference in those aspects.
Perhaps, we should strive for all nurses to be single, to get rid of all those fights over holiday schedules, and why some "should" work certain holidays, and others should not. Perhaps, we should require them all be of one politically party, so that "we are unified".
I don't believe so.
True unity transcends differences.

I don't think the sarcasm in the mid part of your post is warranted personally.

A house divided against itself cannot stand...that quote holds some meaning for ME.

Nurses will never have true unity in the current mode...because our ed programs themselves and their differences promote us being at odds IMO.

Now I'm a diploma nurse and I don't see BSN's as 'better' than me, but there are lots who do...and the public in general equates more educated to better, no doubt in my mind.

Likely the bedside nurse will always be looked down at as the least educated lesser nurses among us. Because obviously they would not be there if they had enough education. Thats the mentality I HEAR, from the public AND nurses, along with 'why do I need a BSN if I only want the bedside'? I used to say that MYSELF, but now I think differently.

After many years in this profession, I think mandating BSN with grandfathering of current AD's and diplomas is a good thing for the profession as a whole.

Nurse212 · Feb 13, 2005

I am amazed by the amount of finger-pointing arguments I have read so far within this thread. The old argument as to whether or not an ADN is better than a BSN and vice versa is getting old. What we are trying to find out in this thread is simple:

WILL A BSN TRULY BECOME A REQUIREMENT IN NEW YORK STATE TO PRACTICE OR IS IT ALL JUST PROPAGANDA THAT PROFESSORS IN COLLEGES HAVE BEEN TRYING TO PUSH TO GET STUDENTS TO SWAY THAT WAY FOR THEIR OWN PROFIT?

That is the main question here. Now, in regards to all the talk about a BSN being better than an ADN by means of all the theoretical nonsense, the answer is no. Hell, I come from an educational background that consists of a Bachelors in Accounting and a Masters in Finance and already on my way to an ADN. Now, I ask you this, "Does this mean that due to my many degrees, I should be treated or respected more than an ADN?" The answer is no. I've seen the requirements for a BSN and the requirements for an ADN, all the technical work is exactly the same, the same clinicals and the same nursing courses. The difference is what you see in all colleges for all degress. For instance, you go to school and you want to get a B.S. in Accounting, you start off like everyone else in your University and first have to deal with 2 years of useless liberal arts courses that, in reality, you always look at as small barriers to get out of the way before you actually start learning the practical material to help you in the real world.

Seriously, at the end of the day, the only thing that seperates an ADN nurse from a BSN nurse is the 1-2 years of liberal arts courses that, consequently, will not change the quality of work when inside a hospital setting. Sure, it sounds better to have a Bachelors as opposed to an ADN, but, again, it's the experience that will determine how well they practice and how competent the nurse is. I've worked in corporate America for more than 5 years now and the only necessary abilities that are asked from me are the ones attained from my business related courses, the liberal arts classes I took serve me when having small talk at a bar or when discussing issues with friends, but, in reality, what people want are individuals that can get the job done.

Don't be fooled by the old saying, "We look for individuals that aren't shallow and that can bring more to the table than just technical skills." That sounds real nice in commercials and on paper but, truthfully, you can be the most well-spoken and most knowledgable individual when it comes to theory, but if you cant get the job done, then you are worthless in the work setting. One of the previous posters said it best when she said that she has been working as an ADN nurse for many years and many are the times that she has had to stop and take time to show these BSN hot shots how to start a simple IV because their 4-star education didn't touch up on that too much.

Plus, remember, people are not robots that only do what they are taught to do, just because some people have an ADN Degree without the liberal art courses, doesn't mean that they will not be competent enough to know enough about what they do in a theoretical sense. How shallow a person is in regards to their trade isn't preordained by their education alone. Simply put, if you want to get paid a few more bucks and would like to have the initials BSN next your name, then go for it. There is nothing wrong with that and I think geting more education can work out as a positive thing, but let's not point the finger at people who have an ADN.

NOW IF SOMEONE WHO IS "IN THE KNOW" WOULD SIMPLY LET US KNOW WHEN WILL THIS DECISION BE MADE IF AT ALL AND BY WHO, I AS WELL AS EVERYONE ELSE IN NYS WOULD APPRECIATE IT!

Thank you guys,

Nurse212

mwbeah · Feb 13, 2005

[color=#990000]new york state considers mandatory bsn

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by roxanne nelson, rn, contributor

a proposal by the new york state board of registered nursing requiring all associate degree nurses to obtain a bachelor's degree in order to continue working in their profession, has fanned the flames of a debate that is nearly four decades old.

back in 1965, the american nurses association (ana) issued its first position paper on nursing education, envisioning a two-tiered system with associate degree programs producing "technical" nurses, and four-year programs graduating "professional" nurses. in the early 1980s, the ana was hopeful that the baccalaureate degree would be the mandatory requirement for entry into nursing practice.

but the new york proposal does not restrict entry to baccalaureate prepared nurses, according to nancy webber, a spokesperson for the new york state nurses association (nysna).

"our understanding is that nurses can still be trained in a two year program, take the nclex, and practice," webber said. "but then they must complete their bsn within 10 years of licensure."

the certification change would affect only future graduates and not nurses already working. but critics argue that mandating a baccalaureate degree will only worsen the current nursing shortage.

in a letter to the board, sharon l. bernier, rn, ph.d., president of the national organization for associate degree nursing, wrote that it was very disappointing that "an organization representing all levels of nursing in new york state would choose to suggest such a discriminatory action especially in a time of escalating nursing shortages and without evidence that there would be a difference in the nurse performance after 10 years without the baccalaureate."

the proposal was modeled after the new york state licensing requirement for teachers who are certified to teach with a bachelor's degree, but then must obtain their master's degree within a certain time frame in order to keep their certification.

"the impetus of this is the nursing profession's acknowledgement that because of the increasing complexity of health care, and in order to keep pace with other professions, nursing should require the bsn as an entry point," said joseph tomaino, rn, msn, and a health care consultant from westchester county, new york. "what this proposal deals with is the reality that the majority of nurses access the profession incrementally from less education-lpn, ad, diploma, and so on-and then progress to the bsn. this creates a meaningful incentive to move them forward."

"physical, occupational, and speech therapists have all gone to the master's level for entry and pharmacists have gone from a baccalaureate entry level to a doctorate," tomaino added. "this initiative represents a reasonable and realistic approach to achieving forward progression for the profession and for improvement of patient care."

not all nurses share tomaino's opinion.

maureen bourne, rn, a labor and delivery nurse working in new york city, questions if it is really necessary for all nurses to obtain a bsn degree.

"if nurses like myself, who have been in the profession for over 20 years, have not proved ourselves to be good at our job by now, then do you really think obtaining a bsn is going to help and if so, how?" bourne said.

maria picado, rn, a case manager in new york city who entered nursing with a bsn, also doesn't think it is necessary

"as far as i am concerned, you will be a good nurse with or without one," picado said. "and i do think that it will make the nursing shortage worse."

tom dunn, a spokesperson for the new york state education department, emphasizes that this is just a proposal and no decisions have been made.

"the board of education determines policy and the board of nursing has brought this proposal to the board of regents, and they have yet to consider the proposal," dunn said.

the proposal will be sent to the board of regents for consideration in late fall or early winter, dunn said.

if nurses do not fulfill the bsn requirement, it is unclear what the consequences would be. according to webber, the nysna has not received any official communication from the board in regards to that question.

"until the proposal is made formerly, it is premature to speculate," she said. "this is really just a discussion period and the state board has indicated that they'd like to hear opinions before they present it formally."

"our board of directors has said that they are in favor of rns advancing their education, with whatever degree they have," webber added. "so you could say that we've given it a qualified support, as there are still issues that need to be discussed and resolved."

thus far, north dakota is the only state to attempt mandating the baccalaureate degree as the requirement for entry into nursing practice, but it dropped the requirement last year.

miya · Feb 13, 2005

I cant' get that link to load. When was this article written? It says that the proposal will be considered in fall or winter. Is that fall or winter of this year? I am on the NYS Board of RNs and I can't find any info (although I haven't delved very deeply yet). I guess I just have to wait for some decisions to be made. I want to get my BSN and my advanced degree no matter what, so it doesn't matter to me. I'm only concerned because the only way I can get into the field is with my ADN (because of family/financial obligations). So long as this option is available to me, I'm happy. I'm all for education and advanced education. But that's just me and how I was brought up (emphasized by family). ~ Miya ~

mwbeah · Feb 13, 2005

i cant' get that link to load. when was this article written? it says that the proposal will be considered in fall or winter. is that fall or winter of this year? i am on the nys board of rns and i can't find any info (although i haven't delved very deeply yet). i guess i just have to wait for some decisions to be made. i want to get my bsn and my advanced degree no matter what, so it doesn't matter to me. i'm only concerned because the only way i can get into the field is with my adn (because of family/financial obligations). so long as this option is available to me, i'm happy. i'm all for education and advanced education. but that's just me and how i was brought up (emphasized by family). ~ miya ~

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