Is someone justified in harassing someone to tell them if they got vaccinated or not?

toomuchbaloney · Jul 24, 2021

8 minutes ago, underpressure said:

You don't need any type of qualification to be concerned about adverse effects people are having to the covid vaccine. But if you want to keep talking about qualifications, I'd say you're not qualified to suggest otherwise.

It is tantamount to fear mongering to suggest that there is something there that could be a suggestion of something bad. Here's where we disagree. I call it being cautious.

Why do you want people to feel concern rather than confidence in these vaccines when the scientific evidence to date supports confidence? I actually do want people to feel confidence in the scientific evidence. I want to feel confidence in it, too, but there's not enough long term evidence in my opinion. I've already said this. But you can keep asking me the same questions if that's how you enjoy spending your retirement.

Apparently you don't think ANYONE is qualified/equipped to infer anything. What do you think is the purpose of VAERS then? Who is it for if not the general public?

Sharing your flawed opinion about the safety of these vaccines, in public ways under the guise of a health professional, is irresponsible particularly during a pandemic. Your opinion encourages hesitancy.

I in no way implied, much less stated that no one was qualified to infer anything. Hyperbole is a tool for those without a sound argument and it doesn't pass for rational debate.

guest1178273 · Jul 24, 2021

9 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Sharing your flawed opinion about the safety of these vaccines, in public ways under the guise of a health professional, is irresponsible particularly during a pandemic. Your opinion encourages hesitancy.

I in no way implied, much less stated that no one was qualified to infer anything. Hyperbole is a tool for those without a sound argument and it doesn't pass for rational debate.

"I in no way implied, much less stated that no one was qualified to infer anything" -Yes you did. See below.

"where's the rational response that argues that the general public is equipped to infer ANYTHING from the VAERS database?"

"Sharing your flawed opinion about the safety of these vaccines, in public ways" ...so what's the point of the forum? For everyone to agree? For people to only have opinions that match yours? I'd say your opinion is the one that's flawed here.

Also please look up the definition of hyperbole. I don't consider hyperbole a tool of any sort.

macawake, MSN · Jul 24, 2021

58 minutes ago, underpressure said:

Apparently you don't think ANYONE is qualified/equipped to infer anything. What do you think is the purpose of VAERS then? Who is it for if not the general public?

VAERS contains unverified reports. It’s raw data entered by members of the public or healthcare professionals as I understand it. The reporting system is there for the general public to report events. It is not there for the general public or you or I to draw conclusions from. Why can’t you see that?

▪️You, I and the general public do not know the accuracy or the veracity of the reports made.

▪️You, I and the general public do likely not have a good grasp of the background incidence of reported events.

▪️You, I and the general public do not have access to the medical histories and other relevant information about the people who have reported the events.

I genuinely don’t understand how any nurse thinks that they can go look at raw data and think they can deduce anything useful.

More than 340 million doses of different Covid-19 vaccines have been administered in the U.S. so far. The human brain often struggles with big numbers. Take a moment and try to wrap your head around the number of ???? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

adminstered so far.

Last time I checked the incidence of myocardial infarctions in the U.S. was around 600 cases per 100,000 (per year).

So if you go to VAERS and notice that under a three month period 176.572 reports have been made by people saying that they or someone else have suffered an MI within two weeks of receiving a vaccine dose, what conclusions would you draw? Would you go; OMG! OnehundredandseventysixTHOUSAND heart attacks! OMG!! This vaccine is scar-eeeee ?

Hopefully you wouldn’t. But some members of the general public just might.

This pandemic is a global crisis that has been a major part of our lives for the last sixteen months. It’s in the media 24/7. There’s no way to escape it really. It has also been bigly politicized in the U.S. You have TV networks that have delivered loads of inaccurate information about the pandemic and the vaccines. Social media is chock-full of vaccine disinformation. And as I said more than 340,000,000 vaccine doses have been administered. Of course there will be many reports made to VAERS. But can you please leave the analyzing to the people who actually have the expertise and access to all the data? The fact that many events are reported doesn’t mean anything in itself and you can draw absolutely zero conclusions just because you think the number of reports is a big number.

toomuchbaloney · Jul 24, 2021

9 hours ago, underpressure said:

"I in no way implied, much less stated that no one was qualified to infer anything" -Yes you did. See below.

"where's the rational response that argues that the general public is equipped to infer ANYTHING from the VAERS database?"

"Sharing your flawed opinion about the safety of these vaccines, in public ways" ...so what's the point of the forum? For everyone to agree? For people to only have opinions that match yours? I'd say your opinion is the one that's flawed here.

Also please look up the definition of hyperbole. I don't consider hyperbole a tool of any sort.

More of your flawed interpretation of words. If hyperbole isn't one of your tools it is, indeed, a mystery how it got into your remarks.

Again, this isn't about personal opinions, it is about sharing only fact and evidence based information with the public during a public health emergency. You keep sharing opinion. I keep responding with the fact that your concerns and hesitancy shouldn't be shared publicly because they are unfounded and it's a dangerous message for people with less education than you.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Jul 24, 2021

From the VAERS web site:

"

Limitations of VAERS:

It is generally not possible to find out from VAERS data if a vaccine caused the adverse event

Reports submitted to VAERS often lack details and sometimes contains errors

Serious adverse events are more likely to be reported than non-serious events

Numbers of reports may increase in response to media attention and increased public awareness

VAERS data cannot be used to determine rates of adverse events"

https://vaers.hhs.gov/faq.html

In my opinion, the main value in VAERS is the following (and it IS very important):

VAERS is a tool for identifying potential vaccine safety concerns that need further study using more robust data systems.

VAERS is only a preliminary step. We can conclude nothing from the raw data other than that a worrisome event is being reported in significant numbers such that it demands further scrutiny. Saying that this vaccine or that one has more reports than any previous vaccine is irrelevant, particularly when a vaccine has gotten a lot of publicity or is controversial (or is being used as a political talking point by manipulative people).

guest1178273 · Jul 24, 2021

47 minutes ago, macawake said:

VAERS contains unverified reports. It’s raw data entered by members of the public or healthcare professionals as I understand it. The reporting system is there for the general public to report events. It is not there for the general public or you or I to draw conclusions from. Why can’t you see that?

▪️You, I and the general public do not know the accuracy or the veracity of the reports made.

▪️You, I and the general public do likely not have a good grasp of the background incidence of reported events.

▪️You, I and the general public do not have access to the medical histories and other relevant information about the people who have reported the events.

I genuinely don’t understand how any nurse thinks that they can go look at raw data and think they can deduce anything useful.

More than 340 million doses of different Covid-19 vaccines have been administered in the U.S. so far. The human brain often struggles with big numbers. Take a moment and try to wrap your head around the number of ???? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

adminstered so far.

Last time I checked the incidence of myocardial infarctions in the U.S. was around 600 cases per 100,000 (per year).

So if you go to VAERS and notice that under a three month period 176.572 reports have been made by people saying that they or someone else have suffered an MI within two weeks of receiving a vaccine dose, what conclusions would you draw? Would you go; OMG! OnehundredandseventysixTHOUSAND heart attacks! OMG!! This vaccine is scar-eeeee ?

Hopefully you wouldn’t. But some members of the general public just might.

This pandemic is a global crisis that has been a major part of our lives for the last sixteen months. It’s in the media 24/7. There’s no way to escape it really. It has also been bigly politicized in the U.S. You have TV networks that have delivered loads of inaccurate information about the pandemic and the vaccines. Social media is chock-full of vaccine disinformation. And as I said more than 340,000,000 vaccine doses have been administered. Of course there will be many reports made to VAERS. But can you please leave the analyzing to the people who actually have the expertise and access to all the data? The fact that many events are reported doesn’t mean anything in itself and you can draw absolutely zero conclusions just because you think the number of reports is a big number.

It's all clear to me now. Thank you

allnurses Guide · Jul 25, 2021

“Vaccine hesitancy” in regards to the Covid vaccines really is a misnomer: it is not “hesitancy” in a traditional sense. There was an interesting survey recently that showed that majority of the unvaccinated say they will “never” get vaccinated. Of the remaining, the majority give that they “don’t trust covid vaccines” as their main reason. However, if the survey asks to select “all reasons that apply” instead of just one, the majority pick all of the reasons.

This equates to playing a game of whack-a-mole with reasons why these folks are “hesitant”. The only thing that may convince them is seeing more of their friends get sick and die, unfortunately.

macawake, MSN · Jul 25, 2021

2 hours ago, BostonFNP said:

“Vaccine hesitancy” in regards to the Covid vaccines really is a misnomer: it is not “hesitancy” in a traditional sense. There was an interesting survey recently that showed that majority of the unvaccinated say they will “never” get vaccinated. Of the remaining, the majority give that they “don’t trust covid vaccines” as their main reason. However, if the survey asks to select “all reasons that apply” instead of just one, the majority pick all of the reasons.

This equates to playing a game of whack-a-mole with reasons why these folks are “hesitant”. The only thing that may convince them is seeing more of their friends get sick and die, unfortunately.

I agree, and it’s in my opinion quite troubling. When I read the following article I was saddened to see that it appears that even this man’s battle with Covid, doesn’t appear to have convinced some of his close relatives to get vaccinated.

https://fortune.com/2021/07/07/delta-variant-midwest-trump-country-rejects-vaccines/

It’s just tragic to me that many people will have to go through a serious illness and perhaps lose their lives, when we do have access to effective vaccines.

Sometimes I wonder if some people have dug their heels in so deep that even when things happen in their own lives that should make them aware that vaccines are a whole lot better and safer than an infection, they have so much invested in their position, that they’re simply unable to change.

JKL33 · Jul 25, 2021

2 hours ago, macawake said:

they have so much invested in their position, that they’re simply unable to change.

So...in very general terms, not covid-specific, I think that sums up the problem in our country. The majorities--unable and unwilling.

Now we have reached a point where apparently its cool to see how much vile hatred and disregard can be fomented and spread around as a means of displaying superiority, as if that is ever going to take us anywhere. Hatred and disregard are terrible--whenever someone else is doing it, of course. While counteracting incorrect information and conspiracy theories is crucial, the masses appear to have decided that the best way to do this is to take the approach of trying to insult others as a way of showing that one's views are superior. This doesn't work. It doesn't matter if we don't like that it doesn't work; how we feel about it is completely irrelevant. The universe has not granted any of us the "right" to be lauded for our actual or imagined superiority. Insults don't win in any scenario where the desire is others' cooperation. If we decide that some people are simply inferior/beneath us, then good luck with the idea that they should listen to what we say. Just...good luck with that.

We all make our choices with regard to how we interact with each other. And EVERYBODY must accept responsibility for their own actions.

guest1163268 · Jul 25, 2021

4 hours ago, macawake said:

I agree, and it’s in my opinion quite troubling. When I read the following article I was saddened to see that it appears that even this man’s battle with Covid, doesn’t appear to have convinced some of his close relatives to get vaccinated.

https://fortune.com/2021/07/07/delta-variant-midwest-trump-country-rejects-vaccines/

It’s just tragic to me that many people will have to go through a serious illness and perhaps lose their lives, when we do have access to effective vaccines.

Sometimes I wonder if some people have dug their heels in so deep that even when things happen in their own lives that should make them aware that vaccines are a whole lot better and safer than an infection, they have so much invested in their position, that they’re simply unable to change.

If you dug superficially deep, you will find that numerous of their decisions are stupid, with multiple instances of them directly causing harm to others! The reason is because people are too polite and sympathetic!

Outside of my patients, in the real world, stupid people rarely stay long in my vicinity. I will in no uncertain terms let them know how stupid I think they are. I do it because I am afraid of them, because I have seen too many instances of the havoc they wreak. I don't want to be caught up. Also, I only keep considerate, grateful people around me and I think stupid people are neither! They absolutely know that they are morons, because they have had too many instances of the outcomes and instead of being grateful for the survival and learning, they will persist in their behaviors.

You will also find that they are lazy, selfish and impulsive and in the absence of a mental illness, IMO, should not be shown kindness or civility after the age of 25 or so, because it's those behaviors that may have prevented them from changing their ways. Hormones are done with them, so the remaining aspects are all personality!

Anyone who disagrees, work a few shifts on an adolescent or children unit and see the damage and pain inflicted on those innocent young people by the people who should have been caring for them!

We live in a harsh world as Covid is demonstrating, so pay attention to the good people in your lives and give them your allowance of civility and kindness!

Daisy4RN · Jul 27, 2021

As I have said before there are many people from all walks of life who are concerned about THIS particular vaccine. If you keep blaming only one group of people that will not solve the problem.

This problem, as well as all the Country's problems only get solved when people realize that both sides, politically and otherwise, need to stop with ridiculous rhetoric and work together.

allnurses Guide · Jul 27, 2021

3 hours ago, Daisy4RN said:

As I have said before there are many people from all walks of life who are concerned about THIS particular vaccine. If you keep blaming only one group of people that will not solve the problem.

Daisy, be objective for a minute, and you will realize how ridiculous this statement is.

1. You say "this vaccine". There are 170 vaccines in trials using four different types of mechanisms. There are three approved vaccines using two completely different mechanisms. Which one is the "this vaccine" you have concerns about?

2. The are individuals from all walks of life that have concerns, sure, but individuals are not the problem. It's large groups of people sharing a common set of beliefs related to vaccine hesitancy. In fact, the vast majority all share the same four beliefs about the covid vaccine in particular; all of them targets of social media misinformation by a small number of individuals.

3. The strongest predictor of covid vaccine hesitancy is political party. Let that sink in for a second because it is totally absurd.

4. The most common listed rationale for not being vaccinated is that the vaccine is riskier than the virus. The virus that has a case fatality rate of 2% and has killed 627k people. If we took all the deaths reported to VAERS after all of the covid vaccines together (and we all know that the vast majority of those reports have nothing to do with the vaccine) the mortality rate would be 0.0018%.

5. The most common concern is for "long term side effects" despite the fact there is zero precedent in the entire history of vaccines for severe side effects to emerge months after vaccination (let alone years) and no plausible mechanism by which any of the covid vaccines could trigger that kind of response. That doesn't even consider the fact there is quiet ample evidence of persistent complications from covid illness.

Lets all be honest with ourselves and others and (hopefully) lets not take our medical advice from politicians or internet influencers.