Is the RN--->BSN push a clever way to get older nurses out of the way

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As in certain "Baby Boomers" who wont retire? Wont we NEED a faster RN producing mechanism (hello again, ADN programs!) in order to provide enough nurses to care for this huge group of people due to retire soon?? Just wondering...

Specializes in ER.

One hospital system pays new nurses 20 bucks an hour for their residency but they upped it to 25 to compete with the system I work for. Around the same time, the hospital system dropped the pay from 24.something to 20.something although they were paying most new hires around 23.00. They just upped it to 24.something again to compete with the other hospital system.

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I mean, clearly, the ideal would be to have every healthcare worker as educated as possible. Why stop at BSN? Why don't patients deserve the expertise and education of a MSN? Why shouldn't techs have an associates? Why shouldn't all rural hospitals be staffed with cutting edge equipment and doctors who specialize in every field of medicine? Don't our patients deserve that? I'm sure research would prove all of that? Don't you believe in evidence based practice?!??

Ever hear the saying 'People who want everything wind up with nothing'?

I agree that the BSN-only thing is the natural next step in RN education. But enough of this "Won't someone think of the profession", "Won't someone think of the patients" BS. As though those of you entrenched in nursing acedemia are wide-eyed dreamers and the rest of us are self interested, short-sighted "drags" on the profession. It's condescending and tiresome.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
I mean, clearly, the ideal would be to have every healthcare worker as educated as possible. Why stop at BSN? Why don't patients deserve the expertise and education of a MSN? Why shouldn't techs have an associates? Why shouldn't all rural hospitals be staffed with cutting edge equipment and doctors who specialize in every field of medicine? Don't our patients deserve that? I'm sure research would prove all of that? Don't you believe in evidence based practice?!??

Ever hear the saying 'People who want everything wind up with nothing'?

I agree that the BSN-only thing is the natural next step in RN education. But enough of this "Won't someone think of the profession", "Won't someone think of the patients" BS. As though those of you entrenched in nursing acedemia are wide-eyed dreamers and the rest of us are self interested, short-sighted "drags" on the profession. It's condescending and tiresome.

Have you read studies that demonstrate improved patient outcomes from techs with ADs? For bedside nurses with MSNs? I haven't read those studies, and if they exist, then perhaps that argument should be made. Without the study being done nothing objective can be said about it.

I assume your last paragraph is directed at me. The irony of it is laughable and a simple projection of your position. And for the record, I am not "entrenched in nursing academia", I work full time on the front lines, so to speak.

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
I mean, clearly, the ideal would be to have every healthcare worker as educated as possible. Why stop at BSN? Why don't patients deserve the expertise and education of a MSN? Why shouldn't techs have an associates? Why shouldn't all rural hospitals be staffed with cutting edge equipment and doctors who specialize in every field of medicine? Don't our patients deserve that? I'm sure research would prove all of that? Don't you believe in evidence based practice?!??

Ever hear the saying 'People who want everything wind up with nothing'?

I agree that the BSN-only thing is the natural next step in RN education. But enough of this "Won't someone think of the profession", "Won't someone think of the patients" BS. As though those of you entrenched in nursing acedemia are wide-eyed dreamers and the rest of us are self interested, short-sighted "drags" on the profession. It's condescending and tiresome.

I agree with you, to a point,,,

We SHOULD be thinking of the profession, and our patients for a soulution to this mess of contention-if it is a bachelors for the entry level, so be it; make ADNs accessible to obtaining a BSN by partnering with universities, also grandfathering ADNs into the clinical ladder and offer those who can help new and future nurses to help transition into the novice to expert role successfully, no push out, no shutting doors-except for the public traded institutions that are NOT higher ED institutions.

The end.

And if anyone wants to measure whether an ADN has equal or greater outcomes, google nursing grants, find a community college and start measuring the outcomes; We all know that with more experience, there are better outcomes.

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I see lots of posts arguing what is best for individual nurses. I see fairly few arguing what is best for nursing as a profession and, more importantly, what is best for the patients.

If you are willing to listen, some people on this thread have stated that experienced and competent nurses, regardless of whether they have a BSN, are best for the patients BECAUSE THEY PROVIDE BETTER PATIENT CARE than BSN educated nurses with little to no experience. I believe most people will tell you that when they are sick they would like a competent, experienced and caring nurse providing their care, and that this is what they would like for their family members. It is certainly what I wish for my family, and for myself. It is absolutely irrelevant to me and my family whether a nurse has a diploma, ADN, or BSN, and I have an ADN and BSN from an accredited program at a state university.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
If you are willing to listen, some people on this thread have stated that experienced and competent nurses, regardless of whether they have a BSN, are best for the patients BECAUSE THEY PROVIDE BETTER PATIENT CARE than BSN educated nurses with little to no experience. I believe most people will tell you that when they are sick they would like a competent, experienced and caring nurse providing their care, and that this is what they would like for their family members. It is certainly what I wish for my family, and for myself. It is absolutely irrelevant to me and my family whether a nurse has a diploma, ADN, or BSN, and I have an ADN and BSN from an accredited program at a state university.

Please point out any place where someone has argued that RN experience is not an important factor in patient outcomes.

This has been demonstrated in the literature countless times, as has staffing level, and nursing education level. They are not mutually exclusive, education and experience, in fact any rigorous study would control for both experience and staffing levels when examining nursing education.

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Specializes in Emergency and Critical Care.

Do any of you remember back in the 80's when the CNS (MSN) was on the units helping to educate staff and patients, and then DRG's came in and affected the bottom line and they were some of the first expensive nurses to do away with. Then hospitals tried to do away with the CNA, and found they could not function without them, some small hospitals closed down and all the rest realized they needed CNA's for better patient care. What do we think will happen financially to hospitals who decide they will only hire BSN nurses, what will happen to their bottom line over time especially with the ACA and this economy. Hospitals small and large especially the for profit are not going to be able to make money for their stakeholders if they spend their money on the most expensive part of patient care which is nursing.

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Specializes in Nurse Scientist-Research.
What do we think will happen financially to hospitals who decide they will only hire BSN nurses, what will happen to their bottom line over time especially with the ACA and this economy.

I don't know if you mean if hospitals eliminate all bedside staff except BSN nurses (including replacing CNAs) but I don't believe hospitals are paying much more (if any) for BSNs over ADNs.

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Specializes in PCCN.
"A lot" is two words. Oops, sorry. I am,after all, an ADN.

A few facts, here.

Let's not forget that a very large portion of the population lives in places where they have no choices in which hospital besides Hicktown General to use when they need admission, and the St Mattress CC grad may be all they ever see. I have worked in those hospitals, and they are scary places.

Yes. They WERE scary places. Except now they don't exist, at least where I live. They got drummed out of business by the large "corporate " hospital-who now has so many patients that we have had to put them in hallway beds for the last 8 months.Not unusual to have 100+ pts in ED at one time. Each floor has had additional beds added , but no additional staff added. My patients are not getting proper care, because nursing is stretched thin. How is a BSN going to help that? Our hands are tied.

I also believe that this exact situation is what has contributed to very high turnover rates and lack of experienced nurses in this area.

Also, neither Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown, nor Princeton has an undergraduate nursing program (and only Yale has a graduate nursing program). The only Ivy schools that have undergraduate nursing programs are Columbia (Accelerated BSN/NP program only) and Penn (the only one with a true baseline undergraduate BSN major).

My error- I had looked at the Yale site briefly. I will rescind the Ivy League comment. No matter anyway- private colleges here are still 30,000+ per year. Adn /CC programs were designed for the working person who is obviously not independently wealthy. Maybe the hospitals need to decide "do we want our patients to have the best educated staff taking care of them?" or the reality of " Let's move 'em through production line style so that we have the most revenue for our buck"
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Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I see fairly few arguing what is best for nursing as a profession

I must be one of the few. I opposed to doing away with the community college ADN program for several reasons. For the good of the nursing profession being one of the most important reasons. I disagree with those who advocate for doing away with the ADN as I feel that when they get their wish nursing, as a profession, will suffer.

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Specializes in Emergency and Critical Care.
I don't know if you mean if hospitals eliminate all bedside staff except BSN nurses (including replacing CNAs) but I don't believe hospitals are paying much more (if any) for BSNs over ADNs.

No I was saying they already tried eliminating CNA's and found out it didn't work,and when we had MSN's at the bedside they cut those positions first because of the cost and now they are reintroducing the CNS at the bedside again. These things have been done in the past and they did not work. The economy is worse now than it was when they tried it the first time. If they replaced ADN's with all BSN's they would have to pay less in order to stay in the black.

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I attended a reputable, rigorous ADN program at a community college. No, the name of it isnt "St Mattress". We ate, drank, and dreamt nursing (disease processes, care plans, RN level skills, etc) the whole way through. The ADN CAN'T be diluted, as it contains the 'meat and potatoes' of the degree. No biscuits, no butter. Now, does that make sense?! Furthermore, much like the PA educational model was built around the 'bare necessities' physician's training necessitated by WW2, ADN programs were created to answer the NEED for expedited nurse training during that time as well. So, people who find themselves in a small, rural hospital will be just as safe being cared for by 'ol ADN RNs. Heck, they would probably be much safer if they were cared for by experienced RNs of any kind than if they were tended to by all new grad BSNs. And that is what I am saying. School cant, wont, and never will teach students everything they need to know.

Might we suspect that employers are hoping two years of humanities, community, and whatever else will compensate for the LIFE and NURSING EXPERIENCE they have decided they can no longer afford??!

As I said before, I may be new to nursing, but im smart enough to know that working experience is invaluable. By and large as I see myself surrounded by new grad BSNs, WOW... it would be nice to work with more who have 'lived and learned' as opposed to someone who only maybe read about something kinda like that in a book.

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