Is the RN--->BSN push a clever way to get older nurses out of the way

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As in certain "Baby Boomers" who wont retire? Wont we NEED a faster RN producing mechanism (hello again, ADN programs!) in order to provide enough nurses to care for this huge group of people due to retire soon?? Just wondering...

Specializes in LTC, med/surg, hospice.

The last 2 places I have worked, they don't even allow your credentials beyond RN to be on the badge. So I don't know who has what type of degree unless the topic comes up. When the studies conclude that BSN nurses allow for better outcomes does that include BSN and ADN-BSN nurses?

Also when I was starting with nursing school, they always told us that the ADN prepared you bedside nursing and the BSN, a nurse leader or management role.

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To Nola and the other new grads with staggering student loans, I'm sorry you are struggling. It is not fair, but it is a product of our country's politicians who only care about the rich and the corporations. It is Congress that made student loans a lifetime debt when they did away with bankruptcy options over overblown claims of people misusing bankruptcy. Ironic that gambling debt is bankruptible, but not student loans! I believe this started back in the 70's, correct me if I'm wrong, and finished with making bankruptcy no longer an option on private student loans in 2005!

At least with govt loans there was a 25 year income based repayment, but who wants to be paying on student loans so long. Some of us old timers are still paying (either are own or our childrens) and are on the 25 year repayment because of deferments, forbearance etc. I'm on such a plan and I never did income based repayment. When I first started as an RN I made $13/hr and my student loan was $350 which after rent and car payment didn't leave much to live on. I lived frugally for many years without any savings and with credit card debt. It has only been in the past couple years that I have buckled down and built up an emergency fund via a Roth IRA. Luckily I had been putting away 6% in the 403b before I bought my house after reading the original Personal Finance for Dummies and was able to use a loan for another new car and my first house! I still live frugally, no jewelry, rarely go on a real vacation and run my cars into the ground before I buy a new one 10+ years as long as they will go!

Again to Nola at least you got your foot in the door and you are building valuable experience that will eventually lead to a full-time job. Keep you eyes open and keep applying for a full-time job in nursing usually 32 hours or 36 hours. I believe eventually you will land a full time job since your experience will increase your value to employers! Also usually a person is able to do overtime because most hospitals under staff and don't hire adequate workers in the first place so overtime is usually abundantly available!

Remember it is not just you and not just nursing, many people are unable to find jobs, even part-time in their field these days and it may take a couple years of determination to ferret out the job you went to school for. It is frustrating and it is demoralizing but this is the reality given the recession, the corporate mantra of profits over people and the use of an education for opportunity rather than using unions to increase pay and benefits like in Europe! Over 50% of lawyers are working in a job that doesn't require a law degree and their are many retail and office workers with a bachelors where it's not required. The sad thing about this degree inflation is the high price of student loans while wages and benefits are stagnating and declining.

Back to the ADN vs BSN it is this poor economic reality that needs to be considered before taking out more student loans to get a BSN. Are you prepared to be paying back student loans into retirement! What will you do if you get sick or lose your job? How will you pay back those loans then? About 1/4 of people 45 to 65 end up on disability. You probably take care of many of these unfortunate people every day at work! If you become one of these unfortunate people how are you going to have enough money to pay the bills and keep a roof over your head! Also you will need a lawyer to fight to get the student lenders to recognize that you are truly disabled before they will forgive any more student loans you still owe. If you are successful in getting the student loans forgiven then you will owe massive federal and state income tax as the forgiven debt will be treated as ordinary income unless you can prove your insolvent! If you default on student loans your tax returns, wages and even social security and disability will be garnished. Over 100,000+ people on social security are being garnished for student loans as we speak! So before you blindly jump on the BSN bandwagon, keep these things in mind!

Thank-you so much for your comments. You and so many others have let me know that I'm not alone. Why do so many people who have completed their degrees struggle to pay back loans to a government that has been BOUGHT by the corporations in this country?!! Some people need to get FIRED--- not you, not me, or any other hard working person with practical, valuable skills! We deserve better than this!!!!

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Specializes in Nurse Scientist-Research.
The economy is worse now than it was when they tried it the first time. If they replaced ADN's with all BSN's they would have to pay less in order to stay in the black.

I'm a big supporter of the BSN, just putting that out there first. But I feel like playing devil's advocate.

A few months ago our facility had a market survey and wage adjustments followed. I unintentionally (really!) caught sight of a coworker's paper with her new rate, it was about 60% what my new rate was. She's a 2 yr experienced BSN, I was a 21yr experienced ADN (hadn't quite finished the BSN yet).

If my hospital's looking to reduce costs, which nurse will help them stay in the black?

By the way, I got no raise directly tied to my BSN completion. I believe I got a slightly higher raise due to some school projects I shared but no raise for BSN per se.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
The argument against the study in the thread you mentioned is not about the data.

Are you referring to the debate about extrapolating the results of the study past the authors' conclusion?

The data from that study is fairly solid and it supports the results from several other similarly powered studies from several countries including the US.

That was actually about the authors' conclusions regarding their raw data, not extrapolation beyond the author's conclusions.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
I see lots of posts arguing what is best for individual nurses. I see fairly few arguing what is best for nursing as a profession and, more importantly, what is best for the patients.

Of course, that's the basis of my concern for getting rid of the ADN pathway. Is it better for patients if there are only half as many nurses?

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
That was actually about the authors' conclusions regarding their raw data, not extrapolation beyond the author's conclusions.

So we agree, it's about the authors conclusions not the actual data?

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
Of course, that's the basis of my concern for getting rid of the ADN pathway. Is it better for patients if there are only half as many nurses?

So eliminating the ADN pathway to entry by requiring a BSN bridge would result in half as many nurses? Is there that kind of nursing shortage?

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

ADN programs were created to answer the NEED for expedited nurse training during that time as well.

Heck, they would probably be much safer if they were cared for by experienced RNs of any kind than if they were tended to by all new grad BSNs.

And that is what I am saying. School cant, wont, and never will teach students everything they need to know.

Playing a bit of devils advocate here, but would you say that there is a current need/demand for "expedited nurse training" akin to WWII?

Again, education and experience are both important factors and are not mutually exclusive.

I agree school can't and won't be able to teach/prepare you for every possible scenario, however, I do believe it can equip you with the tools to best handle those scenarios.

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Playing a bit of devils advocate here, but would you say that there is a current need/demand for "expedited nurse training" akin to WWII?

Again, education and experience are both important factors and are not mutually exclusive.

I agree school can't and won't be able to teach/prepare you for every possible scenario, however, I do believe it can equip you with the tools to best handle those scenarios.

Thank-you for your comments. I said that to say that ADN/ASN programs are not half of what BSN programs are. They are an intense, rigorous albeit practical approach to educating Registered Nurse hopefuls. As I have said before, who can claim there is something wrong with additional education? I have plans to obtain a BSN myself. My problem is same as what a lot of others have commented on --- there IS notable degree inflation and therefore an unwarranted increase in the COST of attendance. I think we would lose a lot of new talent if we did away with ADN/ASN programs and we are missing out on the value of experienced (ADN or otherwise) RNs who have been thown away. Not for better patient outcomes, but for better bottom lines.

The WWII Cadet Nurse Corps | Nurse.com News

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Specializes in Critical Care.

Yes I remember when the MSN CNS Rn's were eliminated to save money. Many of those nurses went on to get an NP to get a job in a field that was expanding. Also many hospitals have been reducing their middle management and consolidating admin positions to save money! Many of these RN's had BSN or even MSN and again their position was not secure.

While BSN RN may be ideal, hospitals usually don't pay more for the credentials, the only place I know of is the VA. Personally I don't believe there is much difference between ADN vs Diploma vs BSN. So the BSN took organic chemistry and possibly physics for nursing, while that would be interesting and challenging I don't think it applies to bedside nursing. Many of the ADN nurses already have a Bachelors degree or at least many college courses.

I didn't finish my BA before I got my ADN because I was told I would not qualify for student loans. Also I didn't believe my BA would help me get a job. I had not taken out student loans before because I was working part-time and going to school part-time, living with roommates and paying as I went. I actually loved school and loved learning, even dabbled in foreign languages just for the fun of it! It was fun to go to school, but sad that we are mislead to get a BA when it doesn't lead to a real job!

Perhaps the elite children from wealthy parents are able to find good paying jobs as their family and friends open the door (think Hilary Clinton's daughter on NBC Nightly News, Laura Bush's daughter on the Today Show, Sara Palin's daughter on Dancing with the Stars and even Katie Couric who got into TV thru a college connection, a friend who was related to her boss), but the rest not so. I saw many people working as secretaries, security guards, and even taxi drivers who had a BA and that was in the late 80's.

All these poor indebted students that are learning the hard way the lie about education. Then when many can't get a decent job they go back to school for a teacher certification or for nursing and choose the cheapest and fastest way, an ADN even though they already have a degree. Accelerated BSN and direct entry MSN were not an option back when I went to school for nursing. Even now these options are hard to come by. Also many have maxed out federal student loans on their prior degree and then end up taking out private student loans and end up in worse financial shape. We've had several CNA's with a BA/BS who couldn't get a decent job, guess what they then went back to school for nursing! Even laid off factory workers have gone back to school to get a nursing degree and the govt pays for it!

Experience trumps credentials! For bedside nursing I think certifications trump a BSN. Truthfully a BSN is a way out for nurses to get away from the bedside and get into case management and other office based nursing positions. The irony is that many of these non bedside nursing jobs involve a pay cut for education! Again most MSN teaching jobs are woefully underpaid, unless you are one of the few tenured professors. Now almost 75% of teachers in university are part-time, untenured, paid by the class, in many cases less than minimum wage and may not even include health insurance unless there is a union in the university system!

Tuition has actually more than tripled from what it was when I went to school. It is insane what it costs even at the public university! Tuition has been increasing much faster than inflation and health insurance is not far behind. Health insurance has more than tripled in cost with thousands in out of pockets. But my wages have not tripled!

As nurses age or have families they are facing such high medical costs if they go back to school, many will be forced to take out student loans which have no consumer protections and are the worst debt out there. Frankly if a hospital refuses to grandfather their ADN staff they should be required to pay for the BSN they so desire. Someone posted that it is mandatory that the hospital pay for required education as is the case with ACLS, BLS etc. Some will argue this isn't fair because they paid for their BSN, but in every other field such as PT and pharmacy the older workers were grandfathered in and they simply changed the requirement for the new students going in. And don't believe these educational upgrades are all about quality, many times it is a weeding out factor to decrease competition and keep wages up!

I'm not Florence Nightingale or Mother Teresa, and I just can't go back to school because of some ideal about the nursing profession. School is not free like in many European countries. I have to focus on what is best for me personally as I'm the one that has to pay for it! There is only one study saying BSN RN's are better, and I personally feel I best serve my patients by keeping up on relevant changes in the field, not a BSN. A certification would serve my patients better than a BSN and also serve me better. Luckily the hospital I work for agrees as they will pay for a certification, but not a BSN!

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
I think we would lose a lot of new talent if we did away with ADN/ASN programs and we are missing out on the value of experienced (ADN or otherwise) RNs who have been thown away.

If there was a transition to BSN entry, how would nursing "lose a lot of new talent"?

I am not sure where the "thrown away" comes from, is someone actually advocating for delicensing current ADNs?

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1:07 pm by BostonFNP

Quote from MunoRN

That was actually about the authors' conclusions regarding their raw data, not extrapolation beyond the author's conclusions.

So we agree, it's about the authors conclusions not the actual data?

MunoRN just told you it's actually about the author's conclusions regarding their raw data, and he was the person who provided the main argument against you on that thread. What part of "regarding their raw data" is difficult for you to understand?

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