(So glad I stumbled across this website again after almost 6 years! I need to change my username because I am not an aspiring nurse anymore, I have been a nurse for almost 3 years! ?)
Anyway, I really do not want to take this new covid vaccine. I know I can’t be the only one who feels this way. Typically I am not an anti-vaxxer but something about this illness is making me think otherwise. For personal reasons I really do not want to take it when available at my hospital, but I’m afraid it will be mandatory. I am almost considering finding a new job if my hospital forces us all to take it. What a shame because I do like my job and wouldn’t know what else to turn to that isn’t nursing, because chances are most healthcare related places of employment will likely require all employees take it.
I want to use the excuse of it being against my religion but I already took the flu vaccine this year. I have nothing against the flu vaccine but didn’t necessarily want it, but my hospital practically FORCED everyone to take it unless they grant you an exemption. I’m afraid they’ll question me why I took the flu shot but cannot take the covid vaccine.
What do you guys think about this? Will you be taking the vaccine? I just want us to be able to make our own decisions about this. If patients can refuse medications, procedures, and treatments, why can’t healthcare workers do the same? I read in multiple articles it will not be required by the federal government but each state and employer can decide whether or not it will be mandatory.
And forget the $1500 “stimulus check” that may be offered if you take it. All the money in the world would not change my mind about taking the vaccine. I feel as though if you have to bribe people to take it, something is peculiar.
I don’t know why this is bothering me so much. It should be a choice in my opinion. But by telling a few friends about not wanting it I feel judged. I have worked with covid patients multiple times since I am one of the younger nurses who does not have any kids/am pregnant. I feel like week after week I was always chosen to go to the covid section. At first I was mad but now it doesn’t bother me. I am not afraid to be near covid patients. Luckily through all this time I haven’t caught it. I always tell people I’d rather catch it than get this vaccine. That’s how strongly I feel against taking the vaccine. All of my non-nursing who have had covid are covered and thriving. To me catching it isn’t the biggest deal but others have called me selfish because I could be spreading it to others. Why is it looked at as selfish for not wanting to inject something into MY body. #mybodymychoice
Am I thinking about this too much? What would you do?
For every HC worker who refuses the vaccine, route it to a general population vaccine pool. Members of the public can register for this pool and when one becomes available, can get vaccinated along with HC personnel, using the refused vaccine doses. USE THOSE VACCINES. Let's get going! This is taking a long time.
SIgned,
Someone who thought they would not get vaccinated but did.
I would rather those doses still go to health care - or whichever category is currently getting the vaccine.
The 'Great Barrington Declaration' came out in the first week of October, a week later came the response from more than 6,000 infectious disease experts, the John Snow Memorandum, which was a detailed rebuttal of the Great Barrington Declaration. The proponents of the Great Barrington Declaration have yet to offer any defense of their position as a response, effectively surrendering to the evidence based argument of the John Snow Memorandum.
There is no doubt that mitigating the effects of the Covid19 epidemic has adverse effects, which results in unintended deaths that possibly number in the hundreds, or possibly even thousands. But the the number of deaths just in the US from taking no mitigation measures ranges from about 2 million (the estimate backed by even Trump) to closer to 6 million if you apply the CFR to the US population.
Your cited 'evidence' that masks don't reduce deaths includes no comparative evidence of mask compliance with non-compliance. Studies that do show significant decreases in deaths with masking vs non-masking, including a difference in mortality of 130,000 over 6 months with better masking compliance, this is from Nature, which you have previously argued is a reliable source.
Statistics aside, I'm a lifelong Quaker, and as such find it ***ing disgusting that you are arguing that you aren't concerned whether other humans live or die because your Christian beliefs say you don't need to be concerned with that, and that your ability to pursue those "Christian" beliefs supersedes the right of others to be free from avoidable suffering and even death. If worshipping Christ hasn't taught you that those beliefs are clearly wrong that I really don't understand what it is that you have learned, if anything at all.
Where did I say that I was not concerned if other humans live or die? This is a gross misrepresentation of my argument. Rather, I argued that lockdowns harm more than they help and I presented Florida where we haven’t had lock downs since Winter of last year as evidence verses states like New York “ that have (and have a higher Covid death rate).
I would rather those doses still go to health care - or whichever category is currently getting the vaccine.
I hear what you're saying.
I said that out of frustration with some colleagues, meanwhile the motivation level among some of my non-HCW friends is high and I feel bad that they're not getting it while those who have the chance are refusing it.
Where did I say that I was not concerned if other humans live or die? This is a gross misrepresentation of my argument. Rather, I argued that lockdowns harm more than they help and I presented Florida where we haven’t had lock downs since Winter of last year as evidence verses states like New York “ that have (and have a higher Covid death rate).
Also, my approach goes well beyond The Barrington approach in that I would offer extensive benefits to those over 70 or with other medical vulnerabilities such as subsidized rent, mortgage payments and free delivery of food and pharmaceuticals along with M95 masks and faceshields likely to be much more effective. Your mischaracterization of my position isn’t just an ad hominem attack against my argument but a personal one with no basis and I would submit is also less than Christian. Still, I would gladly give my life to defend your right to make such an argument.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
21 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Where did I say that I was not concerned if other humans live or die? This is a gross misrepresentation of my argument. Rather, I argued that lockdowns harm more than they help and I presented Florida where we haven’t had lock downs since Winter of last year as evidence verses states like New York “ that have (and have a higher Covid death rate).
Have you offered evidence that lock downs harm more than they help?
Christian is a loose word , as is fundamental liberties. Lots of people who identify as Christians are downright evil and the same applies for any other religion. Once you start delineating your rights as coming from your "God", you've entered Crazyland because you believe that your deity are right and all other dieties are wrong in respect to your's. Florida has been consistently in the red since June and you still are. Your unemployment rate was around 6.4% for November. It was 3.1% in Vermont, 6.0 % in Michigan and Oregon 6 % but these latter 3 states are not in the red in terms of infection rates. Vermont did it the best. Their Republican governor did not politicize the science...ever. Your hospital capacity on November 25 was 25% and December it looks like about a third of your counties are at capacity. That is a really ugly situation for the people who have to work in them, especially now since they can't import staff from other states.
Oh, we entered "Crazyland" a long time ago on this thread.
Want to point out that it's not too stressful to post anti-vax-OMG-is-it-going-to-be-mandatory theories from home where you work doing telehealth, not facing patients directly, and are able to order your groceries for pick up or delivery, while colleagues are wearing masks and face shields and caring for covid patients every day......
Rather, I argued that lockdowns harm more than they help and I presented Florida where we haven’t had lock downs since Winter of last year as evidence verses states like New York “ that have (and have a higher Covid death rate).
There is no doubt that lockdowns come at a cost, both in financial terms, liberty and in mental health. But attempting to minimize contacts between people when a pathogen is spreading unchecked in a community saves lives and can help prevent healthcare systems from collapsing. Something that in itself would generate more morbidity and mortality.
You can’t use the mortality rate in New York and in Florida to draw the conclusion that lockdowns don’t work. That’s applying simplistic logic to analyze a complex problem.
If you compare the two states the mortality rate is actually rather similar. But I guess you were comparing New York City to the state of Florida? Apart from having their peaks at different times during this pandemic, they have different climates and probably a whole bunch of other factors that needs to be looked at. Not saying that any of these are of importance but you don’t know before you’ve done a more complex analysis that involves a whole lot more than whether there was formally a lockdown or not.
New York City has a population density of over 27,000 per square mile, whereas Florida’s is slightly below 400. That could be a factor. Not that population density is the whole answer to mortality rates, otherwise the Dakotas wouldn’t be in fourth and sixth positions among the states with the highest per 100,000 Covid mortality.
Also, the initial outbreak in New York City unfolded very rapidly at a time when we knew very little about the virus, whereas if I’ve got my stats right, Florida saw a large increase in numbers later on in the pandemic.
This virus has behaved in a way that has sometimes made it hard to predict the development of the pandemic. But I think it’s reasonable to assume that with this virus, as with any virus, physical distance protects you, and being in close proximity to many other people increases your risk. So I don’t think it’s logical to assume that lockdowns do not work.
Edited to add: I just saw your other post on the same topic. Florida does in fact have a higher Covid mortality rate (97/100,000) than California (60/100,000). See the CDC link I posted above.
There is no doubt that lockdowns come at a cost, both in financial terms, liberty and in mental health. But attempting to minimize contacts between people when a pathogen is spreading unchecked in a community saves lives and can help prevent healthcare systems from collapsing. Something that in itself would generate more morbidity and mortality.
You can’t use the mortality rate in New York and in Florida to draw the conclusion that lockdowns don’t work. That’s applying simplistic logic to analyze a complex problem.
If you compare the two states the mortality rate is actually rather similar. But I guess you were comparing New York City to the state of Florida? Apart from having their peaks at different times during this pandemic, they have different climates and probably a whole bunch of other factors that needs to be looked at. Not saying that any of these are of importance but you don’t know before you’ve done a more complex analysis that involves a whole lot more than whether there was formally a lockdown or not.
New York City has a population density of over 27,000 per square mile, whereas Florida’s is slightly below 400. That could be a factor. Not that population density is the whole answer to mortality rates, otherwise the Dakotas wouldn’t be in fourth and sixth positions among the states with the highest per 100,000 Covid mortality.
Also, the initial outbreak in New York City unfolded very rapidly at a time when we knew very little about the virus, whereas if I’ve got my stats right, Florida saw a large increase in numbers later on in the pandemic.
This virus has behaved in a way that has sometimes made it hard to predict the development of the pandemic. But I think it’s reasonable to assume that with this virus, as with any virus, physical distance protects you, and being in close proximity to many other people increases your risk. So I don’t think it’s logical to assume that lockdowns do not work.
Edited to add: I just saw your other post on the same topic. Florida does in fact have a higher Covid mortality rate (97/100,000) than California (60/100,000). See the CDC link I posted above.
I stand corrected on the comparison verses California. However, my point is that Florida has never had a mask mandate (although many if not most people wear them) and we have allowed 100% occupancy on our restaurants since maybe August? Disney and Universal Studios have been open. Also other than Maine we have the greatest percentage of our population over 65 (the very population that is exponentially more prone to dying from Covid). Thus, if lockdowns were the primary answer then it is reasonable to assume that we would have perhaps the worst challenge with Covid in the United States. However, states like North Dakota and Illinois have higher Covid death rates than Florida. I would argue that a Barrington plus strategy https://politicsaired.wordpress.com/2020/10/13/gbd/ (that is augmented with protection for vulnerable population members with things like subsidized rent, free delivery of groceries/drugs and upgraded PPE for the more vulnerable as I have previously outlined) offers a far superior model. It means that we can have the economic growth necessary to sustain such benefits for the more vulnerable members of society until herd immunity (gained from a combination of vaccination and people being repeatedly exposed to the virus) diminish the impact of the virus. Again this is because the disease becomes exponentially more serious with age https://www.CDC.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html. Healthy people younger than 65 face a greatly lower risk of morbidity and mortality than do older people.
Christian is a loose word , as is fundamental liberties. Lots of people who identify as Christians are downright evil and the same applies for any other religion. Once you start delineating your rights as coming from your "God", you've entered Crazyland because you believe that your deity are right and all other dieties are wrong in respect to your's. Florida has been consistently in the red since June and you still are. Your unemployment rate was around 6.4% for November. It was 3.1% in Vermont, 6.0 % in Michigan and Oregon 6 % but these latter 3 states are not in the red in terms of infection rates. Vermont did it the best. Their Republican governor did not politicize the science...ever. Your hospital capacity on November 25 was 25% and December it looks like about a third of your counties are at capacity. That is a really ugly situation for the people who have to work in them, especially now since they can't import staff from other states.
The theory that rights emanate from God is not "crazy land" it is one of the fundamental theories of rights it is stated in our Declaration of Independence:" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men." and also emanates from the work of John Locke amongst other it is the basis for our government. Natural Law was the dominant legal approach for much of our history, and while no longer predominant is still an important dynamic in our legal system. At least 64% (and up to 84%) depending upon how the question is asked believe in a literal God https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/americans-believe-god.aspx . The early Christians (and some later ones) frequently risked death by assembling to practice their faith Let us firmly hold the profession of our faith without wavering, for He who promised is faithful [and] Let us not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but let us exhort one another, especially as you see the Day approaching.” (Hebrews 10:23-25) .
There is no doubt that lockdowns come at a cost, both in financial terms, liberty and in mental health. But attempting to minimize contacts between people when a pathogen is spreading unchecked in a community saves lives and can help prevent healthcare systems from collapsing. Something that in itself would generate more morbidity and mortality.
You can’t use the mortality rate in New York and in Florida to draw the conclusion that lockdowns don’t work. That’s applying simplistic logic to analyze a complex problem.
If you compare the two states the mortality rate is actually rather similar. But I guess you were comparing New York City to the state of Florida? Apart from having their peaks at different times during this pandemic, they have different climates and probably a whole bunch of other factors that needs to be looked at. Not saying that any of these are of importance but you don’t know before you’ve done a more complex analysis that involves a whole lot more than whether there was formally a lockdown or not.
New York City has a population density of over 27,000 per square mile, whereas Florida’s is slightly below 400. That could be a factor. Not that population density is the whole answer to mortality rates, otherwise the Dakotas wouldn’t be in fourth and sixth positions among the states with the highest per 100,000 Covid mortality.
Also, the initial outbreak in New York City unfolded very rapidly at a time when we knew very little about the virus, whereas if I’ve got my stats right, Florida saw a large increase in numbers later on in the pandemic.
This virus has behaved in a way that has sometimes made it hard to predict the development of the pandemic. But I think it’s reasonable to assume that with this virus, as with any virus, physical distance protects you, and being in close proximity to many other people increases your risk. So I don’t think it’s logical to assume that lockdowns do not work.
Edited to add: I just saw your other post on the same topic. Florida does in fact have a higher Covid mortality rate (97/100,000) than California (60/100,000). See the CDC link I posted above.
I thought it was proven that the governor of Florida was not truthful with Covid death rates?
Kitiger, RN
1,834 Posts
I would rather those doses still go to health care - or whichever category is currently getting the vaccine.