(So glad I stumbled across this website again after almost 6 years! I need to change my username because I am not an aspiring nurse anymore, I have been a nurse for almost 3 years! ?)
Anyway, I really do not want to take this new covid vaccine. I know I can’t be the only one who feels this way. Typically I am not an anti-vaxxer but something about this illness is making me think otherwise. For personal reasons I really do not want to take it when available at my hospital, but I’m afraid it will be mandatory. I am almost considering finding a new job if my hospital forces us all to take it. What a shame because I do like my job and wouldn’t know what else to turn to that isn’t nursing, because chances are most healthcare related places of employment will likely require all employees take it.
I want to use the excuse of it being against my religion but I already took the flu vaccine this year. I have nothing against the flu vaccine but didn’t necessarily want it, but my hospital practically FORCED everyone to take it unless they grant you an exemption. I’m afraid they’ll question me why I took the flu shot but cannot take the covid vaccine.
What do you guys think about this? Will you be taking the vaccine? I just want us to be able to make our own decisions about this. If patients can refuse medications, procedures, and treatments, why can’t healthcare workers do the same? I read in multiple articles it will not be required by the federal government but each state and employer can decide whether or not it will be mandatory.
And forget the $1500 “stimulus check” that may be offered if you take it. All the money in the world would not change my mind about taking the vaccine. I feel as though if you have to bribe people to take it, something is peculiar.
I don’t know why this is bothering me so much. It should be a choice in my opinion. But by telling a few friends about not wanting it I feel judged. I have worked with covid patients multiple times since I am one of the younger nurses who does not have any kids/am pregnant. I feel like week after week I was always chosen to go to the covid section. At first I was mad but now it doesn’t bother me. I am not afraid to be near covid patients. Luckily through all this time I haven’t caught it. I always tell people I’d rather catch it than get this vaccine. That’s how strongly I feel against taking the vaccine. All of my non-nursing who have had covid are covered and thriving. To me catching it isn’t the biggest deal but others have called me selfish because I could be spreading it to others. Why is it looked at as selfish for not wanting to inject something into MY body. #mybodymychoice
Am I thinking about this too much? What would you do?
No more than it has been proven that other states have inflated them by calling everything from gun shot deaths to hospice deaths Covid deaths.
Do you have any data to prove that? We KNOW that Rebekah Jones was served with a warrant in her house by officers with guns drawn because her Covid Data Board was deemed so dangerous by Ron DeSantis that is required cops locked and loaded to take her computer from her house while the family was sleeping. She recorded it. I haven't heard a single pathologist complain that they were forced to assign a death to covid from a gunshot. Death certificates in March in NYC and NJ were retroactively reviewed because of the mass confusion when bodies were being placed into refrigerated trucks. The Great Barrington "Declaration" is a bunch of hooey spread by a wealthy Libertarian think tank who's members bought an old robber-baron castle high on a hill in a wealthy town in Mass. where they could spend the pandemic shuttered away from the rest of us. Dr. Jay Bhattacharya has been discredited by Stanford University (his employer). It is more focused on the economic morbidities of the pandemic rather than the scientific realities because it came out early on when we just didn't know very much about what worked. And what is happening now in terms of unmitigated spread of the virus just proves that hospitals must be protected unless you want to die of an infected compound fracture. You obviously do not work in a hospital because you seem oblivious to the suffering endured by their workers in their walls. And the most specious argument of yours, is that if is spreads rampantly, no more people get hurt than if we kept the numbers at manageable levels so that hospitals (who's gonna pay for all of this?), businesses and people ALL limp along together until the vaccine is distributed. The psychological problems of the doctors and nurses who are left to suffer after this is incalculable. Treating the long haulers- again, incalculable. If our government had done their JOB, the right people at the right time in the right amount would be receiving enough financial aid to pay rent, eat and keep their businesses from closing forever. But NO, people like me are getting checks who lost nothing during SAH. And now Trump is hoping that bribing citizens with a $2,000 check will make up for the hell he has caused. Like they're going to have another election because everyone who got $2,000 will insist on it. I'm sure your governor was planning on a big job in Washington next term but he will fade quickly into the past as people try to forget the dimwitted evil players in this as quickly as possible. The vaccine is coming and we just have to behave like adults until our turns come. Ann Frank said she believed people were mostly decent.......she was wrong. Happy New Year.
Do you have any data to prove that? We KNOW that Rebekah Jones was served with a warrant in her house by officers with guns drawn because her Covid Data Board was deemed so dangerous by Ron DeSantis that is required cops locked and loaded to take her computer from her house while the family was sleeping. She recorded it. I haven't heard a single pathologist complain that they were forced to assign a death to covid from a gunshot. Death certificates in March in NYC and NJ were retroactively reviewed because of the mass confusion when bodies were being placed into refrigerated trucks. The Great Barrington "Declaration" is a bunch of hooey spread by a wealthy Libertarian think tank who's members bought an old robber-baron castle high on a hill in a wealthy town in Mass. where they could spend the pandemic shuttered away from the rest of us. Dr. Jay Bhattacharya has been discredited by Stanford University (his employer). It is more focused on the economic morbidities of the pandemic rather than the scientific realities because it came out early on when we just didn't know very much about what worked. And what is happening now in terms of unmitigated spread of the virus just proves that hospitals must be protected unless you want to die of an infected compound fracture. You obviously do not work in a hospital because you seem oblivious to the suffering endured by their workers in their walls. And the most specious argument of yours, is that if is spreads rampantly, no more people get hurt than if we kept the numbers at manageable levels so that hospitals (who's gonna pay for all of this?), businesses and people ALL limp along together until the vaccine is distributed. The psychological problems of the doctors and nurses who are left to suffer after this is incalculable. Treating the long haulers- again, incalculable. If our government had done their JOB, the right people at the right time in the right amount would be receiving enough financial aid to pay rent, eat and keep their businesses from closing forever. But NO, people like me are getting checks who lost nothing during SAH. And now Trump is hoping that bribing citizens with a $2,000 check will make up for the hell he has caused. Like they're going to have another election because everyone who got $2,000 will insist on it. I'm sure your governor was planning on a big job in Washington next term but he will fade quickly into the past as people try to forget the dimwitted evil players in this as quickly as possible. The vaccine is coming and we just have to behave like adults until our turns come. Ann Frank said she believed people were mostly decent.......she was wrong. Happy New Year.
6. In the words of an Illinois health official:The case definition is very simplistic,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, director of Illinois Department of Public Health, explains. “It means, at the time of death, it was a COVID positive diagnosis. That means, that if you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means, technically even if you died of [a] clear alternative cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it’s still listed as a COVID death.” https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/29/us_covid-19_death_toll_is_inflated.html
Of course my point is that if Lockdowns were essential then Florida (having the second oldest population in the United States behind Maine) would lead the nation by a large margin of excess Covid deaths since our restaurants and bars have been at 100% for many, many months. Even if our numbers were "deflated" I don't believe they are (or certainly not by much) it would not account for the lack of deaths due to the differences in age and policy. I submit that a Barrington Declaration plus added protections for the old and vulnerable (a strategy not being used anywhere to my knowledge) would both save lives and jobs. We could afford high cost of the subsidized rent, mortgage payments, grocery and pharmaceutical deliveries and N95 masks (and face shields) for the most vulnerable if we let everyone else who is less vulnerable get back to work, and encouraged (not mandated) vaccinations. The failure to at least consider such a policy represents neglect at best and contempt for human life and suffering at worst.
Of course my point is that if Lockdowns were essential then Florida (having the second oldest population in the United States behind Maine) would lead the nation by a large margin of excess Covid deaths since our restaurants and bars have been at 100% for many, many months. Even if our numbers were "deflated" I don't believe they are (or certainly not by much) it would not account for the lack of deaths due to the differences in age and policy. I submit that a Barrington Declaration plus added protections for the old and vulnerable (a strategy not being used anywhere to my knowledge) would both save lives and jobs. We could afford high cost of the subsidized rent, mortgage payments, grocery and pharmaceutical deliveries and N95 masks (and face shields) for the most vulnerable if we let everyone else who is less vulnerable get back to work, and encouraged (not mandated) vaccinations. The failure to at least consider such a policy represents neglect at best and contempt for human life and suffering at worst.
I believe that your proposed Great Barrington Declaration 2.0 appeals to you for primarily ideological reasons, not epidemiological.
What you’re not hearing or taking into account is this:
2 hours ago, subee said:
It is more focused on the economic morbidities of the pandemic rather than the scientific realities because it came out early on when we just didn't know very much about what worked. And what is happening now in terms of unmitigated spread of the virus just proves that hospitals must be protected unless you want to die of an infected compound fracture. You obviously do not work in a hospital because you seem oblivious to the suffering endured by their workers in their walls. And the most specious argument of yours, is that if is spreads rampantly, no more people get hurt than if we kept the numbers at manageable levels so that hospitals (who's gonna pay for all of this?), businesses and people ALL limp along together until the vaccine is distributed. The psychological problems of the doctors and nurses who are left to suffer after this is incalculable. Treating the long haulers- again, incalculable.
You speak as someone far removed from current hands-on practice in a hospital setting. Apart from the increased amount of mortality and morbidity that we’d see in all ages, including younger people, if we let the disease spread freely in the non-high risk population, how much more do you think that healthcare systems can actually absorb at this point? Do you understand that we could easily come to a point where we’d have to practice disaster level care triage with both Covid and non-Covid patients as we run out of both beds and staff? Would you want to be the provider who decides who gets needed healthcare and who doesn’t?
It’s not contempt for human life and suffering that makes posters reject your proposed solution. Quite the contrary.
Your reasoning that lockdowns aren’t necessary or don’t help just because Florida doesn’t have the highest mortality rate of all the states is still as flawed as it was a couple of posts back. I think that just as with your preferred strategy, you are once again guided by your ideology rather than hard science.
Comparing how the pandemic has unfolded in different states and in different countries will likely take years, and I don’t think we’ll ever have a recipe for the 100% perfect best way to handle a pandemic. What I do know is that the final analysis will have to take many different factors into account and will involve many different professional disciplines. It’s complex.
You seem to be a bit fixated on Florida’s mortality rate but have you looked at the timeline in detail?
I chose this source because it has a couple of simple, illustrative graphs that make it easy to track the timeline of cases and deaths in Florida.
It seems that the first death was recorded on March 12. I’m going to list the number of deaths at three month intervals starting on that date. You tell me what you’re seeing.
June 12 2,881
September 12 12,604
December 12 19,785
It seems that the Guvernor of Florida actually did issue a stay-at-home order on April 1 and had previously closed down bars, restaurants and schools. It also says that phase 2 of the reopening started in parts of the state on June 3. Did these things happen?
If it did, then perhaps that could be an explanation of why the covid mortality was comparatively low for the first three months but increased at a very rapid rate the next three? What would the cumulative death toll had been today if the actions taken during the first months of the pandemic hadn’t taken place? We will never know for certain, but I think it’s a reasonable guess that it would have been higher.
I believe that your proposed Great Barrington Declaration 2.0 appeals to you for primarily ideological reasons, not epidemiological.
What you’re not hearing or taking into account is this:
You speak as someone far removed from current hands-on practice in a hospital setting. Apart from the increased amount of mortality and morbidity that we’d see in all ages, including younger people, if we let the disease spread freely in the non-high risk population, how much more do you think that healthcare systems can actually absorb at this point? Do you understand that we could easily come to a point where we’d have to practice disaster level care triage with both Covid and non-Covid patients as we run out of both beds and staff? Would you want to be the provider who decides who gets needed healthcare and who doesn’t?
It’s not contempt for human life and suffering that makes posters reject your proposed solution. Quite the contrary.
Your reasoning that lockdowns aren’t necessary or don’t help just because Florida doesn’t have the highest mortality rate of all the states is still as flawed as it was a couple of posts back. I think that just as with your preferred strategy, you are once again guided by your ideology rather than hard science.
Comparing how the pandemic has unfolded in different states and in different countries will likely take years, and I don’t think we’ll ever have a recipe for the 100% perfect best way to handle a pandemic. What I do know is that the final analysis will have to take many different factors into account and will involve many different professional disciplines. It’s complex.
I do agree that once hospital capacity exceeds a certain point (especially ICU) then it makes sense to have very short term lockdowns, only until capacity increases. However, in the almost ten years I worked ICU (in Florida) there were many months (usually the Winter) where we didn't have even a code bed open (granted it was an HCA facility) and we would have to "triple" and move or downgrade someone (who should not have been) to make an "open" bed for a code or other situation. According to one website https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/number-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-state-by-state-July-15.html . Our situation is not at that level right now (it will differ county by county). I also, believe that the approach I favor and which has never been tried not even in Sweden(Barrington Plus) would help minimize hospitalizations by offering those most at risk a better chance to isolate themselves (voluntary) in that their rent, groceries, drugs would be delivered (and free) and they would get upgraded PPE including face shields and N95 masks (or kn95 which are not quite as good but much better than standard masks). I would also use CAM approaches like vitamin D, Zinc and multivitamins which may offer some immune benefit for base line immunity in the whole population, but especially in at risk individuals.
I also, believe that the approach I favor and which has never been tried not even in Sweden(Barrington Plus) would help minimize hospitalizations by offering those most at risk a better chance to isolate themselves (voluntary) in that their rent, groceries, drugs would be delivered (and free) and they would get upgraded PPE including face shields and N95 masks (or kn95 which are not quite as good but much better than standard masks). I would also use CAM approaches like vitamin D, Zinc and multivitamins which may offer some immune benefit for base line immunity in the whole population, but especially in at risk individuals.
Of course the Barrington Declaration method, enhanced or not, hasn’t been tried anywhere. I would be unethical. Sweden never had a strategy even close to the one proposed in the Barrington Declaration. Herd immunity or letting the lower-risk groups become infected was never the goal.
Are you really suggesting that all but those at high risk for Covid-related mortality start living their normal lives? Returning to work rather than working at home even when they have that option? Socializing in bars, restaurants and attend sports and cultural events like this was just any other year? And put your faith in vitamin supplements to protect them? Do you have any research that shows that taking these supplements prior to getting a Covid-19 infection, will somehow decrease the severity of symptoms and/or improve outcome?
Death isn’t the only possible bad outcome from a Covid infection, even though it is the most serious one. Even though the risk of dying is significantly higher for the elderly and people with certain comorbidities, this virus can kill at all ages. There is also still so much we don’t know about Long Covid. Are you willing to gamble that it won’t be too bad as we wilfully allow millions of younger people to become infected? What do we know about long-term immunity after a natural infection?
I’ll leave it to posters who actually work in the U.S. to comment on how this pandemic has affected their workload as they know that much better than I do. But even as an outsider looking in, I can share a couple of thoughts. Never in the eight years that I’ve posted here have I seen so many posters as I’ve seen these past eight months, sharing their stories about the stress and trauma they’ve faced at work.
2020 was also the first time I ever saw photographs of refrigerated trucks acting as makeshift morgues parked outside American hospitals. If you aren’t acknowledging that this year has put extreme pressure on both healthcare systems and the people working within them, I think you might be a bit out of touch with the reality that many of your nursing brothers and sisters face on a daily basis.
Of course the Barrington Declaration method, enhanced or not, hasn’t been tried anywhere. I would be unethical. Sweden never had a strategy even close to the one proposed in the Barrington Declaration. Herd immunity or letting the lower-risk groups become infected was never the goal.
Are you really suggesting that all but those at high risk for Covid-related mortality start living their normal lives? Returning to work rather than working at home even when they have that option? Socializing in bars, restaurants and attend sports and cultural events like this was just any other year? And put your faith in vitamin supplements to protect them?
Death isn’t the only possible bad outcome from a Covid infection, even though it is the most serious one. Even though the risk of dying is significantly higher for the elderly and people with certain comorbidities, this virus can kill at all ages. There is still so much we don’t know about Long Covid. Are you willing to gamble that it won’t be too bad as we wilfully allow millions of younger people to be infected? What do we know about long-term immunity after a natural infection?
I would encourage wearing masks, allow and encourage working from home where possible. Allow sporting events at reduced capacity (maybe 50%), open bars and restaurants at reduced capacity. Certainly, no curfews or early closing. I used to always shop at Walmart at midnight or later when few were there. Now that they have limited hours I'm forced to go when they are packed. How does limiting hours do anything but increase congestion?. Encourage vaccination. Open everything (with protections) and add a greatly enhanced "shield" (both literal and economic) for the highest risk groups. The needs of the many could be better met and would power the economic engine that would help with the needs of those at higher risk.
6. In the words of an Illinois health official:The case definition is very simplistic,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, director of Illinois Department of Public Health, explains. “It means, at the time of death, it was a COVID positive diagnosis. That means, that if you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means, technically even if you died of [a] clear alternative cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it’s still listed as a COVID death.” https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/29/us_covid-19_death_toll_is_inflated.html
Of course my point is that if Lockdowns were essential then Florida (having the second oldest population in the United States behind Maine) would lead the nation by a large margin of excess Covid deaths since our restaurants and bars have been at 100% for many, many months. Even if our numbers were "deflated" I don't believe they are (or certainly not by much) it would not account for the lack of deaths due to the differences in age and policy. I submit that a Barrington Declaration plus added protections for the old and vulnerable (a strategy not being used anywhere to my knowledge) would both save lives and jobs. We could afford high cost of the subsidized rent, mortgage payments, grocery and pharmaceutical deliveries and N95 masks (and face shields) for the most vulnerable if we let everyone else who is less vulnerable get back to work, and encouraged (not mandated) vaccinations. The failure to at least consider such a policy represents neglect at best and contempt for human life and suffering at worst.
Breitbart, Real Clear, The Freedom Foundation? These aren't journalism sites. They are propoganda sites. You would trust a website created by Steve Bannon (may he be wearing prison stripes soon for fraud)? Journalism in it's basic form is pretty simple: who, what, where, how and why. And then the writer lets the reader form their opinion from the facts.
These are really malicious websites who offer no paths ...they spend all their energies on denegration. With Breitbart, especially the Jews.
In the words of an Illinois health official:The case definition is very simplistic,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, director of Illinois Department of Public Health, explains. “It means, at the time of death, it was a COVID positive .
Dr. Ezike said this at the beginning of the pandemic and she was not well spoken that day. I was suprised she did not have a prepared answer for how deaths from Covid versus deaths with Covid were calculated when asked by a reporter. People really jumped on this and repeated it ad nauseum, the same as people said Dr. Fauci said 'don't wear masks' for the next 9 months. Both Dr. Ezike's and Dr. Fauci's statements pertained to specific situations and were not generalizable.
1 hour ago, myoglobin said:
offering those most at risk a better chance to isolate themselves (voluntary) in that their rent, groceries, drugs would be delivered (and free) and they would get upgraded PPE including face shields and N95 masks (or kn95 which are not quite as good but much better than standard masks).
I am retired with quite a few chronic illnesses, I have been essentially 'homebound' for 10 months (except for every 10 days grocery shopping) and not hugged my grandchildren for 10 months. I RESENT being told I must stay home 'to protect myself' while people in my city frequent bars, restaurants and other areas that the public health data showed were places where the virus was contracted. My grocery store did not handle food delivery/pick up competently. Items were missed, ignored and the staff would not wear masks. I did my own shopping. Now the grocery store has added Covid testing to their services. I will have to avoid those who are there for testing when they decide 'to just run over to grocery for a few things while they are there.' What a cluster.
Look, I have paid faithfully for all city services via my property and sales tax for my adult life. Now I am told to stay home and cocoon so that others can enjoy what I worked hard for.
I would encourage wearing masks, allow and encourage working from home where possible. Allow sporting events at reduced capacity (maybe 50%), open bars and restaurants at reduced capacity. Certainly, no curfews or early closing. I used to always shop at Walmart at midnight or later when few were there. Now that they have limited hours I'm forced to go when they are packed. How does limiting hours do anything but increase congestion?. Encourage vaccination. Open everything (with protections) and add a greatly enhanced "shield" (both literal and economic) for the highest risk groups. The needs of the many could be better met and would power the economic engine that would help with the needs of those at higher risk.
But this isn’t really what the Barrington Declaration suggests, is it? Yours sounds more reasonable as you at least appear to think about actions aimed at preventing/slowing down the spread of infection.
I agree that it doesn’t seem to make much sense to keep a store open but limit their hours since as you state, that only makes it more hard for people to try to avoid shopping at peak hours.
Dr. Ezike said this at the beginning of the pandemic and she was not well spoken that day. I was suprised she did not have a prepared answer for how deaths from Covid versus deaths with Covid were calculated when asked by a reporter. People really jumped on this and repeated it ad nauseum, the same as people said Dr. Fauci said 'don't wear masks' for the next 9 months. Both Dr. Ezike's and Dr. Fauci's statements pertained to specific situations and were not generalizable.
I am retired with quite a few chronic illnesses, I have been essentially 'homebound' for 10 months (except for every 10 days grocery shopping) and not hugged my grandchildren for 10 months. I RESENT being told I must stay home 'to protect myself' while people in my city frequent bars, restaurants and other areas that the public health data showed were places where the virus was contracted. My grocery store did not handle food delivery/pick up competently. Items were missed, ignored and the staff would not wear masks. I did my own shopping. Now the grocery store has added Covid testing to their services. I will have to avoid those who are there for testing when they decide 'to just run over to grocery for a few things while they are there.' What a cluster.
Look, I have paid faithfully for all city services via my property and sales tax for my adult life. Now I am told to stay home and cocoon so that others can enjoy what I worked hard for.
My approach would be voluntary. Your rent and groceries would be paid. Your food and medicine(s) delivered and if you chose to go out you would be provided with an n95 mask (or Kn if n95 were not available) and you would also be provided with face shields or at least googles which again be voluntary. The approach recognizes that there is an exponential risk of serious illness and death as age/morbidity increases. I have been infected twice that I know of with minimal symptoms (other than pink eye the first time). There is some evidence that this disease has been in circulation since Summer/fall of 2019 and it will likely continue indefinitely into the future. I would advocate everything (certainly vaccination) be voluntary.
toomuchbaloney
16,038 Posts
Really? Do you want to share some of that proof of inflated covid numbers which inform your fears?
Meanwhile, DeSantis’ latest hire for data team: Uber-driving, COVID-conspiracy sports blogger