I'm in my first semester of an RN program at an older age. I was eagerly looking forward to it until I actually got into it and found that I don't seem to be getting the respect I think I deserve. Let me preface this by saying I'm in no way a prima donna type, but I am extremely accomplished, so would expect a certain amount of normal respect. I don't want to say too much and give away who I am, but I have a couple of undergrad degrees & a master's degree in very difficult subject areas. In addition, I come from a background full of people with doctorate degrees and other types of very decent accomplishments. When I first started the program, I was very quiet about my background although the instructors may have known (at least, about my education assuming they bothered to look). As I said, I'm not the ego-driven, braggart type. However, I'm wondering if I was too quiet since I seem to be getting bypassed for people in my class who have nowhere near on the ball what I have going for me. I'm actually starting to wonder whether maybe it's due to my age (in which case, I'd be pretty annoyed about any kind of age discrimination). Seems like either that or I've been too quiet about who and what I am - especially relative to some of my classmates who, although they have no previous degrees, are quite vocal about calling out answers trying to impress classmates & instructors. Btw, I do have straight A's so far in the program, so even if the other students didn't know that, the instructors do know. Yet, it seems I get no respect from the instructors - one in particular. Can't quite figure whether she's intimidated by me or what (I have more education than she does) - whatever it is, she has been rather rude from almost day 1. The first week or two in her class, I did ask questions and such - but she kept ignoring me and trying to shut me up. So I tried a different approach - just sat quietly asking no questions. Then I started getting annoyed that some of the class loudmouths were encouraged to get even louder by the instructors (especially this one). It's also to the point that she and one of the other instructors are actually flirty in class with one of the younger male students too. The male student seems OK but he's not a particularly good student - so I find myself sitting there thinking why are the intructors paying any attention to him at all. Well, I KNOW why - they're literally flirting with him as I said. Meanwhile, those of us who deserve to be recognized based on accomplishment take a 2nd seat to that. Smacks of not only unprofessionalism but also of gender and age bias. The instructor who flirts the most (gets all giggly and such around the male student, always calling on him, joking with him, and so on) is actually a great instructor (insofar as knowledge and teaching ability) and treats me well too, but I'm still somewhat shocked at her behavior in class. The rude instructor heaps attention on this (20-something) male student too (although she is old enough to be his mother and then some - she's older than me too and I'm 44 - guessing she's about 55 and the other instructor is probably late 30s to early 40s). What's even stranger yet, is, at times, these 2 get annoyed with the male student when he starts getting too rambunctious in class. Well, no kidding, they've been encouraging it, so of course he's going to get rambunctious. Even he seems confused - at times, he's really eating it up and then they pull the rug out from under him at other times, so he gets really quiet then. Adding to all of that, other students are starting to gossip about the male student being too loud in class now. Anyway, you get the idea: weird happenings in class with 2 out of my 3 instructors, classmates starting to flip out, and no respect from the rude instructor. I keep flipping in my mind between thinking they're complete idiots (the rude one especially) and just blowing it off, total shock other times, total irritation at other times (and on the verge of saying something I might regret), and at other times just thinking the whole program is totally unprofessional. The main thing I'm concerned with is that if these are the kind of people with whom I'll eventually be working, I'd better figure out a way to deal with them. I've thought about assertively approaching the rude instructor after class, but I really don't want to totally burn bridges (you never know who she knows - plus that also risks her rattling on to other instructors I may have in the next 3 blocks & I don't want to make my name "mud"). Besides, with such a wacky situation, not sure talking to anyone would accomplish much. On the other hand, I've been so irritated at times that I've muttered a couple of things under my breath that she probably heard. I've been thinking maybe it's better just to confront her assertively and professionally rather than risk my irritation coming out even more - but then I flip back to thinking I need to just keep my mouth shut due to the the burning bridges aspect. Then again, bridges may already be burned if the one heard my mutterings. Adding to all of this, I'm beginning to get very sheepish in class in response to all of this. Thinking this is going to be a long haul in the program if things are shaping up this way so early. As I said, my real bottom line is I don't want to burn bridges and screw up a new career before I even graduate. So, any advice on how to deal with the situation? Also, does anyone else think some of these nursing programs seem totally unprofessional?
Apparently not. My instructors do not behave the way you are saying yours do. Clumping all nurse educators into the same group as "unprofessional and uneducated" is at best strange and at worse vindictive. I'm sorry you are having the problems you say you are having, even if to the rest of us they don't seem like problems at all. Sounds like nursing school isn't for you, and in turn neither is nursing. Good luck on your future endevors.
I'm not insecure about my age. However, it is very noticeable that there is a definite discrepancy in the way instructors are treating students and it appears to be age-related and also gender-related. I didn't go into this program with any preconceived notions of any such thing occurring. In addition, I have taken plenty of courses throughout my life at varying ages and I've never encountered anything like this - most professors are usually just matter-of-fact and professional - with no noticeable difference in the way students are treated irrespective of age, gender, socioeconomic background, race, etcetera. That's why it sticks out so blatantly. It is highly unusual relative to a normal classroom situation.
In general, except for this program, the professors I've encountered have always been extremely professional and very neutral with no emotion involved. They were full PhD's though, so I find myself wondering if it's partly due to the fact the instructors in this program are mostly BSN's or MSN's who have not been continuously in a classroom setting since their college days as most full PhD professors have at most universities. I've also noticed the actual lectures seem lacking relative to the level of lectures one usually gets in most PhD-run classrooms. A lot of the instructors in this program are out working as nurses at hospitals and similar and are doing this as adjuncts to supplement their incomes with many years between the time they graduated and the time they began working as instructors. So I'm seeing people who really don't know as much as a PhD would know academically, plus they don't have the advantage of a continuous academic setting from the time they graduate, so it all comes together in a fairly ad hoc and unprofessional manner. In addition, these particular instructors cannot seem to keep their own emotions out of the classroom. The flirting, for example, underscores that - as do any kind of discrepancies in the way students are treated. You just do not see that with PhD level professors of either gender, any age, or any race.
It literally seems like I'm in an emotion-driven hen or rooster house with a bunch of unprofessional instructors who aren't particularly knowledgeable in their subject areas either (except for one).
In a nutshell, I'm pretty well dealing with very unprofessional behavior, but I don't want to rock boats especially since some of these people out in the traditional working world too. On the other hand, if they push it to the point where I have nothing to lose anyway, I'll probably end up filing some complaints (if there's nothing left to lose, no reason not to). As I said, however, I would prefer it doesn't get that point. That's precisely what I want to avert in advance.
Okay, I'll buy that. Heck, I could have written it, lol! But, I didn't. I just finished Nursing I. I don't really have any positive experience to report. The instructors do, indeed, give extra help and extra attention and preferential treatment to the male students, particularly the younger ones. They do, indeed, give more attention overall to the younger students, because they are less educated, more pliable, and more easily lead. Of my classmates who were written up for conduct infractions, all of those were bestowed on students age late 20s and up, none to the young kids. Compared to engineering and PhD science instructors, nursing instructors are pretty narrow in their interests: Nursing, child-rearing, church. I haven't found mine to be very interesting people to chat with, as a rule.
Compared to regular college, NS stinks. Bigtime. It's degrading, insulting, mean-spirited, vindictive, devoid of humor, and seeks to fail people out, rather than spoon-feed and nurture them and reinforce their skills in the earlier stages so that they have well-developed skills and abilities in order to succeed later. Nursing school staff have never worried about treating their students with respect or courtesy, at the school I attend. Call and cancel an appointment? No, why bother, Just let the student show up and see the "Out of the office" posted on the door. Rude, rude, rude. Unprofessional. Makes me want to bang their airheads on the wall.
But, remember, this is the medical field: Flunk 'em out, beat 'em up, make 'em earn it, and, by all means, restrict the number of new entrants into whatever medical profession, so as to keep the supply limited and the salaries up.
My Nursing I class started as 65 or 66 people, and is now down to only 45 or so after the final exam, which was so off-beat and full of trivia that even the people with consistent A scores on exams 1 through 4 suddenly dropped to a B on the final, and us B students dropped to C, and so forth. It was degrading, infuriating, and disgusting.
And ya know what? My money spends anywhere, as does yours, OP. If you don't like that particular school and how you are treated, kiss their orifices and smile, smile, smile, and then apply as a transfer student to some school that is run more to your standards. Never give a hint of how dissatisfied you are, b/c then you become the prime flunk-out candidate. You've seen how much sympathy you got here, right? Well, that is the culture of medicine, and the culture of traditionally woman's occupations. People who have spent years in some kind of career where they are the subordinates seem to want to dish it back out to anyone who becomes their subordinate, like perhaps you as the hapless nursing student. Just as there are toxic workplaces, I believe their are toxic NS, lol.
As for age and gender bias, yes, those definitely exist. As a non-mom, with a lot of interests outside the usual scope of home and hearth, I found myself at odds with my clinical instructor over "style." And this might be a problem for you, too, if you are female from the business world or whatever. A woman in nursing is apparently held to the "Mom" standard, i.e. you are expected to be that warm and mothering type and very nurturing and very involved in the personal needs of your patients. Pfft! I'd wager $100 that nobody ever expects nor demands that of the male NS students. Thus, I get negative ratings for "nontherapeutic technique," while the male student working beside me gets glowing reviews for the exact same behaviors. That is just one more reason why NS irritates me, lol.
"You've seen how much sympathy you got here, right? Well, that is the culture of medicine, and the culture of traditionally woman's occupations."
^^^^You nailed that one. It's an artifact of people in lesser positions in life; and, that does tend to be the case in many traditionally female professions. Women PhD professors do not act this way, but they're not in the typically down-trodden jobs by virtue of their educations/positions
"Apparently not. My instructors do not behave the way you are saying yours do. Clumping all nurse educators into the same group as "unprofessional and uneducated" is at best strange and at worse vindictive. I'm sorry you are having the problems you say you are having, even if to the rest of us they don't seem like problems at all. Sounds like nursing school isn't for you, and in turn neither is nursing. Good luck on your future endevors."
^^^^ Get your panties out of the knot. You'd go much further in life to emulate those of us who are well-educated rather than sitting there mired in resentment. Always remember this too: your resentment won't make my education or position in life disappear - you would be much better off directing your energies at something constructive in your OWN life. You remind of exactly the people who fall for this class envy business the poiliticians are always trying to promote. The analogy is: if the "evil" rich become poor, it won't make YOU any richer. Likewise, with your resentment in other areas - it won't improve YOUR life.
Re the education: Quite frankly, a BSN isn't really enough to be teaching. An MSN falls somewhat short too. They need to raise the caliber of these programs. Don't be resentful of that suggestion; afterall, as the caliber is raised, you, too, benefit. Perhaps you're unknowingly accepting mediocrity in your proogram - I strongly suspect that is the case.
Oh, and I don't understand why you are concerned about the sexual harassment, though. Let 'em, let 'em. Let 'em take it into the workplace and the classroom, and then get busted whenever med finally catches up to where the biz world was 20 years ago and some savvy youngster reports 'em. >;-)
I'm not going to fight about it. But as a fellow nursing student. I will give you my best advice.
Look, i kind of think you answered your own question at the start of this thread. You said you better figure out a way to deal with it. If things are actually as bad as you say they are, I'd try my best to work through it. If not, I'd find another school to go to.
But if my grades were as good as you say yours are, I'd stick with it.
I'm in a nursing program as well and we help each other out. But as with everything else with life, thats only optional.
This may seem harsh, but you aren't in that program to be whispered sweet nothings. You're their to learn. Not make friends. Although some of us have a great time and make friends.
If people are screwing around and goofing off, let them. You are responsible for yourself.
So you have very limited options honestly.
You either quit, stick it out, or find another school.
Like i said, at the very beginning of this thread you said you better work it out, so there you go.
Honestly, the only time I've seen any type of flirting was in my undergrad where there was a tenured professor who had a house on campus provided by the school and would have parties where he invited his female students over. The other professors lived next door to him so it wasn't like they didn't know. I also have friends who are professors and they have shared lots of similar stories.
It seems like your view is skewed a bit because you feel slighted so I'm not sure if what you call flirting is someone being possibly overly nice or someone grabbing someone's butt and I inviting them out to dinner.
If you are concerned, there should be someone in the school you could talk to but unless you get other students to say the same thing then it is just your word against theirs.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't you at least need a Masters Degree to teach at the collegiate level? I've never heard of someone with a BSN being a nurse instructor. Even our lab instructors have a Masters degree.
Do some make better teachers than others? Of course! But to say they are barely educated or insecure about their education doesn't help the case you are trying to make here. Oh and I've found that to be true all through my education. PHD or no PHD, some people just make better teachers than others.
Oh well, at this point, the only thing I can say is that you are paying for your education. No one is forcing you to stay in a school that does not meet your expectations. If I were you, I would not spend my money in a place that I thought so little of the folks that are supposed to be making sure I become a safe and competent RN.
I am betting money that the RN program is a hospital-based diploma program. Sadly, they don't operate in the same way a university or community college does at all. I know as I have a degree from a university and took all of my nursing pre-requs at a community college before I entered a hospital-based diploma program. I have 20+ years being in the working world as well. I could've written much of what Streamline2010 said and would also bet that she went to a hospital-based diploma program as well. There may be a real case of favortism going on in your class but not sexual harassment in the classic form. However, I have seen a situation in the workplace where someone was offended at the way some of her co-workers spoke, joked and acted in their mutual workspace and complained and they were made to tone it down. My advice is to get out now while you can. It is still early on and you are experiencing things that you feel are unacceptable and have said that you don't think that the education is that good. You have the smarts and drive for an acclerated BSN program. They're fast and more professional but more expensive. Also, as far as being given respect by instructors or classmates, it's probably not going to change on their part so is there anything on your part that could be changed?
I observed in my school that is was those without previous degrees that tended to think they were worthless. Frankly, I kept my mouth shut about almost everything about myself in the first year. It was no one's business that I owned a company, had been a successful business woman (and still am), nor that I had a previous degree from one of the best and oldest universities in the world.
There is a very strange dynamic that goes on in nursing school and I really did not want to participate in the formation of groups. There was another woman who was more up front about her background (she was extremely accomplished too) and fellow students were incredibly unpleasant about her. Some were quite hostile.
As for instructors? They treat all of us like infants. It is insulting. I suck it up and move on.
Honestly I would just work on being a student amongst students. When you graduate you can leave that rubbish behind and be true to yourself. There are only two people from my class I care to stay in touch with. They were just nice women who worked hard and and did not participate in silly games.
Maybe you should re-think nursing, before you hit the floors and have to learn from someone who only has a *gasp* BScN. I am trying to figure out why you are becoming a nurse with so many other fabulous degrees to your name.
A PHd does not guarantee a good teacher. I had one teacher who had their PHd when I did my degree. She was the worst teacher I ever had. Disorganized. Unprofessional. And totally clueless about nursing because she had never worked as a nurse. She was an academic. Of course, by your standards, she would be the best qualified to teach nursing.
In general, except for this program, the professors I've encountered have always been extremely professional and very neutral with no emotion involved. They were full PhD's though, so I find myself wondering if it's partly due to the fact the instructors in this program are mostly BSN's or MSN's who have not been continuously in a classroom setting since their college days as most full PhD professors have at most universities. I've also noticed the actual lectures seem lacking relative to the level of lectures one usually gets in most PhD-run classrooms. (snip) So I'm seeing people who really don't know as much as a PhD would know academically, plus they don't have the advantage of a continuous academic setting from the time they graduate, so it all comes together in a fairly ad hoc and unprofessional manner.
OP. Welcome to the world of nursing. I had pretty much the same reaction you are having now when I moved from a "higher" level of education to nursing. You are comparing your experience in a PhD program with your experience in a nursing program (level is unimportant). It's apples vs. oranges. Nursing is a profession which traditionally does not value higher education. Experience makes the nurse, and an experienced nurse makes the best teacher. It is wildly opposite of most other academic disciplines. I, too, was shocked and appalled at how parts of my nursing education proceeded but with time comes perspective. Yes, your professors are probably less "professorial" relative to other academic programs. No, most of them don't have PhD's. But those things aren't particularly relevant to the field you're going into. You don't need a PhD to become an RN or to teach others how to be good nurses. You need average intelligence and decent critical thinking skills.
Coming into nursing from higher ed, it's easy to crap all over the field and its method of education. It takes patience and a lot of experience to begin to appreciate what it's like to be a nurse and why you should be proud of the education you are receiving. My advise is this: if you really want to be a nurse (? do you ?), get ready to radically change your perspective on education and learning. Intended or not, you are coming across as an arrogant blowhard in your postings and I'd be willing to bet you present the same attitude to your teachers and classmates. I believe that you believe that you aren't presenting yourself this way but look at how your teachers are responding to you. Look at how other posters are responding to you. Nursing is a profession driven by interpersonal relationships and right now you seem to be burning bridges left and right. There is little tolerance for your kind of attitude in nursing, and no tolerance at all for it in nursing school. You will get eaten alive.
Bottom line: yours is a completely normal reaction, yes you have made some valid points, but none of it matters if you want to be a nurse. Changing into this profession requires a graceful acceptance of a large amount of ridiculousness and unfairness. You have to decide if you want to be a nurse badly enough to make that change.
I'm getting the feeling some of the posters are not used to standing up for their rights and somehow perceive what some instructor who is acting unprofessionally says is gospel. Also regarding their educations, come on let's stop tip-toeing around it: some of these instructors are barely educated - that's probably part of the problem - they're insecure about their own educations. This much I know, the more people have going for them, the less they need to act the way these instructors are acting. They smack of insecurity, incompetence, and unprofessional behavior. They're only managing to make themselves look even worse as they pull this type of thing. The problem is if you're stuck working with these types or stuck with them as instructors, you don't want to inflame them unnecessarily, so that's why I was asking for advice.
Anyway, time for some of you to stop taking this kind of behavior. This also is part of the reason it continues. People are too afraid to stand up to these incompetents. Remember, you are paying these people for a service and you expect to get the goods delivered in a reasonable, professional manner. In addition, you also expect these people to know the academic parts of the subjects they're teaching. Some of the instructors obviously also don't know the material as well as they should - and they seem defensive if questioned. They also have no legal right to discriminate. Also, why is it people are not outraged at the unprofessional flirting by the INSTRUCTORS. That is a potential lawsuit - big time. All legalities aside, it is beyond unprofessional for an instructor to sit there flirting with students. I'm still scraping my jaw off the ground. Time to send the instructors to sexual harassment classes as well to an MD specializing in psychiatry. It is 100% INAPPROPRIATE. Are we on the same planet here?
This has nothing to do with standing up for one's rights. You go ahead and stand up for what you believe but I can guarantee that it won't get you very far. Maybe to the parking lot but not very far in the program.
You are also assuming that all of us here are the mild and meek and that all of our instructors are worthless, "incompetents" was it?
I guess I wonder how you can qualify that statement as a first semester nursing student. Even as a graduate nurse, I know I have a LOT to learn before I can even consider myself a full competent nurse in my specialty.
If you truly feel that way about your instructors now, you have probably chosen the wrong school and possibly the wrong career path.
Why aren't we butt hurt about the flirting? It doesn't affect me. Whatever Joe or Suzy are doing is none of my concern and the grades I earn are just that. Earned. Why do you REALLY care anyway what they are doing? It isn't affecting YOUR performance in class. You are making As according to your post.
Further, a PhD does not equal a better instructor/professor.
There is a lot to be said for a nursing instructor with years of varied experience. I learned WAY more from the former army and med-surg nurse than I ever did from my teacher with his PhD in nursing. He had ZERO floor or patient experience. He was a nightmare and didn't know a thing about talking to patients or the family. He was arrogant and just generally an unkind person.
Did I complain about it? Nope. I realized that no ounce of complaining is going to do a darn bit of good. My job as a student was to take what I could from that experience and move on.
What I learn and gain from NS is entirely up to me as an adult learner.
Samantha79
166 Posts
Apparently not. My instructors do not behave the way you are saying yours do. Clumping all nurse educators into the same group as "unprofessional and uneducated" is at best strange and at worse vindictive. I'm sorry you are having the problems you say you are having, even if to the rest of us they don't seem like problems at all. Sounds like nursing school isn't for you, and in turn neither is nursing. Good luck on your future endevors.