I'm in my first semester of an RN program at an older age. I was eagerly looking forward to it until I actually got into it and found that I don't seem to be getting the respect I think I deserve. Let me preface this by saying I'm in no way a prima donna type, but I am extremely accomplished, so would expect a certain amount of normal respect. I don't want to say too much and give away who I am, but I have a couple of undergrad degrees & a master's degree in very difficult subject areas. In addition, I come from a background full of people with doctorate degrees and other types of very decent accomplishments. When I first started the program, I was very quiet about my background although the instructors may have known (at least, about my education assuming they bothered to look). As I said, I'm not the ego-driven, braggart type. However, I'm wondering if I was too quiet since I seem to be getting bypassed for people in my class who have nowhere near on the ball what I have going for me. I'm actually starting to wonder whether maybe it's due to my age (in which case, I'd be pretty annoyed about any kind of age discrimination). Seems like either that or I've been too quiet about who and what I am - especially relative to some of my classmates who, although they have no previous degrees, are quite vocal about calling out answers trying to impress classmates & instructors. Btw, I do have straight A's so far in the program, so even if the other students didn't know that, the instructors do know. Yet, it seems I get no respect from the instructors - one in particular. Can't quite figure whether she's intimidated by me or what (I have more education than she does) - whatever it is, she has been rather rude from almost day 1. The first week or two in her class, I did ask questions and such - but she kept ignoring me and trying to shut me up. So I tried a different approach - just sat quietly asking no questions. Then I started getting annoyed that some of the class loudmouths were encouraged to get even louder by the instructors (especially this one). It's also to the point that she and one of the other instructors are actually flirty in class with one of the younger male students too. The male student seems OK but he's not a particularly good student - so I find myself sitting there thinking why are the intructors paying any attention to him at all. Well, I KNOW why - they're literally flirting with him as I said. Meanwhile, those of us who deserve to be recognized based on accomplishment take a 2nd seat to that. Smacks of not only unprofessionalism but also of gender and age bias. The instructor who flirts the most (gets all giggly and such around the male student, always calling on him, joking with him, and so on) is actually a great instructor (insofar as knowledge and teaching ability) and treats me well too, but I'm still somewhat shocked at her behavior in class. The rude instructor heaps attention on this (20-something) male student too (although she is old enough to be his mother and then some - she's older than me too and I'm 44 - guessing she's about 55 and the other instructor is probably late 30s to early 40s). What's even stranger yet, is, at times, these 2 get annoyed with the male student when he starts getting too rambunctious in class. Well, no kidding, they've been encouraging it, so of course he's going to get rambunctious. Even he seems confused - at times, he's really eating it up and then they pull the rug out from under him at other times, so he gets really quiet then. Adding to all of that, other students are starting to gossip about the male student being too loud in class now. Anyway, you get the idea: weird happenings in class with 2 out of my 3 instructors, classmates starting to flip out, and no respect from the rude instructor. I keep flipping in my mind between thinking they're complete idiots (the rude one especially) and just blowing it off, total shock other times, total irritation at other times (and on the verge of saying something I might regret), and at other times just thinking the whole program is totally unprofessional. The main thing I'm concerned with is that if these are the kind of people with whom I'll eventually be working, I'd better figure out a way to deal with them. I've thought about assertively approaching the rude instructor after class, but I really don't want to totally burn bridges (you never know who she knows - plus that also risks her rattling on to other instructors I may have in the next 3 blocks & I don't want to make my name "mud"). Besides, with such a wacky situation, not sure talking to anyone would accomplish much. On the other hand, I've been so irritated at times that I've muttered a couple of things under my breath that she probably heard. I've been thinking maybe it's better just to confront her assertively and professionally rather than risk my irritation coming out even more - but then I flip back to thinking I need to just keep my mouth shut due to the the burning bridges aspect. Then again, bridges may already be burned if the one heard my mutterings. Adding to all of this, I'm beginning to get very sheepish in class in response to all of this. Thinking this is going to be a long haul in the program if things are shaping up this way so early. As I said, my real bottom line is I don't want to burn bridges and screw up a new career before I even graduate. So, any advice on how to deal with the situation? Also, does anyone else think some of these nursing programs seem totally unprofessional?
i am entitled both morally and legally to at least the same treatment as other students are getting. i should also make clear from a legal standpoint, my attitude is completely irrelevant. for example, even if i decided to display a "superior" attitude, there is nothing illegal about that on my part. it is, however, breaking federal law on their parts to discriminate based on gender, age, and also the sexual harassment of the younger male.
i'm basically really asking if there is a good way to stop it without resorting to legal action. as i said, these people are flat out breaking federal law regarding age & gender discrimination (and stupid enough to do it while lectures are being recorded) as well as opening themselves up to sexual harassment charges should the younger male ever become annoyed. at this point, i don't want to find myself marching into anyone's office and overtly threatening legal action, yet i will not be subjected to this kind of illegal behavior.
let me clarify- there is nothing illegal/discriminatory in the behavior that you have described.
i don't know the specifics of the flirting behavior but "sexual harassment, is [color=#0645ad]intimidation, [color=#0645ad]bullying or [color=#0645ad]coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors" unless this is taking place, there is no sexual harassment, the male student is an adult, and it's his responsibility to do something about it, not yours.
and as far as illegal discriminatory behavior- did you get denied acceptance to the program based on age or gender? no. are you getting poor performance marks based on your age or gender? no- as you stated, you are getting high a's.
no, what's happening is you feel you are entitled to more respect/preferential treatment because you have all these other degrees. you stated you think you should have been more open to instructors and students about "what and who you are" especially relative to other classmates. that right there tells me you think you are better than other students and think that if they knew all your previous degrees, they would automatically give you more respect.
one instructor was rude and discouraged you from asking questions. two pay more attention to a male student. this is not discrimination, nor is it illegal. i've attached the age discrimination in employment act. maybe it will help you realize that you are not experiencing discrimination. http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm
no, there are no legal grounds for you to go on. you can talk to the instructors about there behavior, but i suspect it would only make things worse. you can keep quiet and earn respect like the other students. or, you can leave the program and go to another school.
I am entitled both morally and legally to at least the same treatment as other students are getting. I should also make clear from a legal standpoint, my attitude is completely irrelevant. For example, even if I decided to display a "superior" attitude, there is nothing illegal about that on my part.
What this boils down to is that you're behaving like an entitled, self-righteous blowhard, people don't like you because of it and are treating you accordingly, but now you're whining and playing victim. Nothing illegal is going on from what you described. Stop acting like this and that should solve all these problems. I'll warn you that if you don't, you won't get anywhere at all in nursing.
i think you are looking for someone to affirm your feelings, not give you advice. so far you have gotten really good advice. you know it is possible that there are people in the world who just don't like you, your instructor being one of them. so what? she doesn't have to like you. your grades aren't suffering. you are not being kicked out of the program. i'm wondering why it is you feel you are being discriminated against because of your age? could it be that you have insecurity about being an older student and are therefore projecting it on to others? you said you don't have a superior attitude but you mentioned that “i come from a background full of people with doctorate degrees and other types of very decent accomplishments.” what does your families accomplishments have to do with you or the amount of respect you deserve? so basically, the answer to your question is the change has to come from you, since i believe the heart of the problem is your view of the issue. an attorney would just be a waste of your money.
btw, to those posting advice in general, i definitely appreciate the advice, but try not to get caught up in feelings of resentment or in making assumptions. most posters aren't doing that, but a few are and the overall effect is to obscure useful advice. i'm looking for matter-of-fact, emotion-free advice if possible.
regarding the legalities: i've actually spoken to a family member who is a labor attorney, and although this isn't an employment situation, a lot of the laws apply. basically, he told me to keep recording for now. vvv
let me clarify- there is nothing illegal/discriminatory in the behavior that you have described.
i don't know the specifics of the flirting behavior but "sexual harassment, is [color=#0645ad]intimidation, [color=#0645ad]bullying or [color=#0645ad]coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors" unless this is taking place, there is no sexual harassment, the male student is an adult, and it's his responsibility to do something about it, not yours.
and as far as illegal discriminatory behavior- did you get denied acceptance to the program based on age or gender? no. are you getting poor performance marks based on your age or gender? no- as you stated, you are getting high a's.
no, what's happening is you feel you are entitled to more respect/preferential treatment because you have all these other degrees. you stated you think you should have been more open to instructors and students about "what and who you are" especially relative to other classmates. that right there tells me you think you are better than other students and think that if they knew all your previous degrees, they would automatically give you more respect.
one instructor was rude and discouraged you from asking questions. two pay more attention to a male student. this is not discrimination, nor is it illegal. i've attached the age discrimination in employment act. maybe it will help you realize that you are not experiencing discrimination. http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm
no, there are no legal grounds for you to go on. you can talk to the instructors about there behavior, but i suspect it would only make things worse. you can keep quiet and earn respect like the other students. or, you can leave the program and go to another school.
What this boils down to is that you're behaving like an entitled, self-righteous blowhard, people don't like you because of it and are treating you accordingly, but now you're whining and playing victim. Nothing illegal is going on from what you described. Stop acting like this and that should solve all these problems. I'll warn you that if you don't, you won't get anywhere at all in nursing.
Can you give some specifics about why you feel you are being discriminated against? Maybe it would help us understand better. You have not said anything that points to age discrimination. Instead you've provided us with lots of info about your background that really is irrelevant to nursing school.
Can you tell us how the instructor was rude to you? What was said?
One person in my clinical group used to hate being criticized and swore the instructor had it in for her if you listened to her tell her story. What I saw was constructive criticism when she messed up yet she felt the instructor was belittling her. So sometimes its a misunderstanding or some people just being too sensitive.
Everything have said about the situation seems very subjective. You feel ignored and you see what you perceive to be favoritism. It doesn't sound like age discrimination to me. I've had people who I've had to work with professionally that I've felt uncomfortable around for no specific reason. I try to treat them fairly but one of these people actually asked me about it once so obviously they were able to detect my unease. I attribute it to some sort of personality conflict.
i'm not insecure about my age. however, it is very noticeable that there is a definite discrepancy in the way instructors are treating students and it appears to be age-related and also gender-related. i didn't go into this program with any preconceived notions of any such thing occurring. in addition, i have taken plenty of courses throughout my life at varying ages and i've never encountered anything like this - most professors are usually just matter-of-fact and professional - with no noticeable difference in the way students are treated irrespective of age, gender, socioeconomic background, race, etcetera. that's why it sticks out so blatantly. it is highly unusual relative to a normal classroom situation.
in general, except for this program, the professors i've encountered have always been extremely professional and very neutral with no emotion involved. they were full phd's though, so i find myself wondering if it's partly due to the fact the instructors in this program are mostly bsn's or msn's who have not been continuously in a classroom setting since their college days as most full phd professors have at most universities. i've also noticed the actual lectures seem lacking relative to the level of lectures one usually gets in most phd-run classrooms. a lot of the instructors in this program are out working as nurses at hospitals and similar and are doing this as adjuncts to supplement their incomes with many years between the time they graduated and the time they began working as instructors. so i'm seeing people who really don't know as much as a phd would know academically, plus they don't have the advantage of a continuous academic setting from the time they graduate, so it all comes together in a fairly ad hoc and unprofessional manner. in addition, these particular instructors cannot seem to keep their own emotions out of the classroom. the flirting, for example, underscores that - as do any kind of discrepancies in the way students are treated. you just do not see that with phd level professors of either gender, any age, or any race.
it literally seems like i'm in an emotion-driven hen or rooster house with a bunch of unprofessional instructors who aren't particularly knowledgeable in their subject areas either (except for one).
in a nutshell, i'm pretty well dealing with very unprofessional behavior, but i don't want to rock boats especially since some of these people out in the traditional working world too. on the other hand, if they push it to the point where i have nothing to lose anyway, i'll probably end up filing some complaints (if there's nothing left to lose, no reason not to). as i said, however, i would prefer it doesn't get that point. that's precisely what i want to avert in advance.
i think you are looking for someone to affirm your feelings, not give you advice. so far you have gotten really good advice. you know it is possible that there are people in the world who just don't like you, your instructor being one of them. so what? she doesn't have to like you. your grades aren't suffering. you are not being kicked out of the program. i'm wondering why it is you feel you are being discriminated against because of your age? could it be that you have insecurity about being an older student and are therefore projecting it on to others? you said you don't have a superior attitude but you mentioned that “i come from a background full of people with doctorate degrees and other types of very decent accomplishments.” what does your families accomplishments have to do with you or the amount of respect you deserve? so basically, the answer to your question is the change has to come from you, since i believe the heart of the problem is your view of the issue. an attorney would just be a waste of your money.
Personally, I like learning from those that have been out in the real world and obviously there is a different teaching stle between those that have made academia their life versus those who have worked in real world settings. I've never encountered any unprofessionalism in programs where I've had part time professors myself but it is a different teaching style.
I agree with most other posts here. Past degrees mean nothing in nursing school. You earn all the respect. You said you are getting straight A's so why worry? Let the instructors do what they want. It seems petty to say that you think an instructor is intimidated by you because you are more educated. In the nursing profession you are not more educated, and she is more well versed. Muttering things under your breath seems like a lack of control that as a "well educated" person you should be able to control and avoid. With your current situation you will always have instructors that you do not like or that do not like you, just keep doing well and move on.
On the other hand, if they push it to the point where I have nothing to lose anyway, I'll probably end up filing some complaints (if there's nothing left to lose, no reason not to). As I said, however, I would prefer it doesn't get that point. That's precisely what I want to avert in advance.
Ummm... I guess I'm confused. As of right now you have everything to lose. It's not like you a failing out, or being kicked out of a program. I don't see, from what you've said, how they are pushing you. You don't like their teaching style, you don't like that two of them flirt with a guy in class, and you don't like that they won't call on you to answer a question. Filing a complaint isn't going to win you any points with anyone. Do you really think, with the evidence you have provided so far, that the director of the program is going to hear your complaints and say, "You are absolutely right. How awful. I can not believe you were treated this way." Do you really believe that fault lies 100% with the instructors and you have no part in creating this issue? Anyone who thinks they are 100% blameless in a conflict is either 100% wrong or crazy. Conflict takes two people, and there will almost always be some blame to place on both. I have not heard yet what it is that YOU think you might be doing wrong, or could change, to help the situtation.
I'm getting the feeling some of the posters are not used to standing up for their rights and somehow perceive what some instructor who is acting unprofessionally says is gospel. Also regarding their educations, come on let's stop tip-toeing around it: some of these instructors are barely educated - that's probably part of the problem - they're insecure about their own educations. This much I know, the more people have going for them, the less they need to act the way these instructors are acting. They smack of insecurity, incompetence, and unprofessional behavior. They're only managing to make themselves look even worse as they pull this type of thing. The problem is if you're stuck working with these types or stuck with them as instructors, you don't want to inflame them unnecessarily, so that's why I was asking for advice.
Anyway, time for some of you to stop taking this kind of behavior. This also is part of the reason it continues. People are too afraid to stand up to these incompetents. Remember, you are paying these people for a service and you expect to get the goods delivered in a reasonable, professional manner. In addition, you also expect these people to know the academic parts of the subjects they're teaching. Some of the instructors obviously also don't know the material as well as they should - and they seem defensive if questioned. They also have no legal right to discriminate. Also, why is it people are not outraged at the unprofessional flirting by the INSTRUCTORS. That is a potential lawsuit - big time. All legalities aside, it is beyond unprofessional for an instructor to sit there flirting with students. I'm still scraping my jaw off the ground. Time to send the instructors to sexual harassment classes as well to an MD specializing in psychiatry. It is 100% INAPPROPRIATE. Are we on the same planet here?
Double-Helix, BSN, RN
3,377 Posts
let me clarify- there is nothing illegal/discriminatory in the behavior that you have described.
i don't know the specifics of the flirting behavior but "sexual harassment, is [color=#0645ad]intimidation, [color=#0645ad]bullying or [color=#0645ad]coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors" unless this is taking place, there is no sexual harassment, the male student is an adult, and it's his responsibility to do something about it, not yours.
and as far as illegal discriminatory behavior- did you get denied acceptance to the program based on age or gender? no. are you getting poor performance marks based on your age or gender? no- as you stated, you are getting high a's.
no, what's happening is you feel you are entitled to more respect/preferential treatment because you have all these other degrees. you stated you think you should have been more open to instructors and students about "what and who you are" especially relative to other classmates. that right there tells me you think you are better than other students and think that if they knew all your previous degrees, they would automatically give you more respect.
one instructor was rude and discouraged you from asking questions. two pay more attention to a male student. this is not discrimination, nor is it illegal. i've attached the age discrimination in employment act. maybe it will help you realize that you are not experiencing discrimination. http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm
no, there are no legal grounds for you to go on. you can talk to the instructors about there behavior, but i suspect it would only make things worse. you can keep quiet and earn respect like the other students. or, you can leave the program and go to another school.