Evolution and Nursing

Red Kryptonite · Mar 3, 2015

And the first woman to ever earn a PhD in computer science was.....Sister Mary Kenneth Keller. Being religious does not automatically equate to being anti-science. It's unfortunate that some think it has to, but there are misguided souls everywhere.

elkpark · Mar 3, 2015

RNsRWe said:
Yeesh. This could have been written by the person I mentioned. Thought she was a bonafide nutjob, so never even considered that there was a movement of people who placed two of every DINOSAUR on Noah's Ark.
I don't know my cubits like I should but I seriously doubt the veracity of any story that has a boat this big afloat in Noah's time!

Ooh, it gets better. Go back to the Creation Museum page I link, and there's a link on that page that takes you to a page that explains why there could have been dinosaurs on the Ark, just not big ones. Young, small dinosaurs that would fit on the Ark, but grew bigger later. It also talks about how dinosaurs continued to live and walk among us until comparatively recently (and might still be out there somewhere!), and that's where all the legends and depictions of dragons come from -- "dragons" are really dinosaurs. And it's all right there in the Bible, it's just been mistranslated. It's a really entertaining read! ?

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Mar 3, 2015

OH my word, I'm gonna have to skip on over there....

Red Kryptonite · Mar 3, 2015

elkpark said:
Ooh, it gets better. Go back to the Creation Museum page I link, and there's a link on that page that takes you to a page that explains why there could have been dinosaurs on the Ark, just not big ones. Young, small dinosaurs that would fit on the Ark, but grew bigger later. It also talks about how dinosaurs continued to live and walk among us until comparatively recently (and might still be out there somewhere!), and that's where all the legends and depictions of dragons come from -- "dragons" are really dinosaurs. And it's all right there in the Bible, it's just been mistranslated. It's a really entertaining read! ?

Oh my.....

elkpark · Mar 4, 2015

(Just for the record, since you speak repeatedly of the beliefs and attitudes of "Christians" in your post, there are plenty of Christians (entire Christian denominations) who are accepting and welcoming of all sexual orientations, just as there are many pro-choice Christians. While I agree that what you're describing applies to some Christians, it definitely does not apply to all Christians as a group. It's unfortunate that a small but v. vocal subset gives the entire population a bad name. :))

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Mar 4, 2015

Gooselady said:
Current scientific understanding makes this premise of a concerned, omniscient supernatural being ludicrous, more and more so. It threatens faith and belief with it's alternative explanations, which are frankly MUCH more credible.

Well, no, not really. My faith, my belief system is not in the least bit threatened by what I know of the scientific community, and science in general. For ME, it only further validates my understanding of the depth of this quagmire we call Life.

I don't consider the Torah to be a literal, word-for-word explanation of everything we are, do, and have done. I DO consider it to be a way for me to place relevance and understanding where I may not have seen it/experienced it before. I think of the Torah's teachings as evolving; meanings change over time and that works for me. I believe (perhaps it's better to say I KNOW) that what I do has an impact on many others in my world, so yes I do believe each of us bears significance, we "matter".

People will take whatever meaning they want from ancient scriptures; IMHO some of them are quite wrong in their understandings, their assumptions, but that's not my worry. MY only concern is that I live my life according to what *I* think is right and true, and that I put my children on the path toward a meaningful (and yes, spiritual) life. If some get there without faith in anything other than their own mortal life, then that's good for them. But if some get there with faith in something greater than themselves....then THAT'S for for them, too ?

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 5, 2015

elkpark said:
(Just for the record, since you speak repeatedly of the beliefs and attitudes of "Christians" in your post, there are plenty of Christians (entire Christian denominations) who are accepting and welcoming of all sexual orientations, just as there are many pro-choice Christians. While I agree that what you're describing applies to some Christians, it definitely does not apply to all Christians as a group. It's unfortunate that a small but v. vocal subset gives the entire population a bad name. :))

I figured there must be. I had the same thoughts after 9/11, where were the Muslims condemning their 'brethren's' murderousness? I watch and read news from every angle, and either the media has not seen fit to publish moderate Christian or Muslim voices much, or they aren't speaking up much. I believe it is a bit of both.

toomuchbaloney · Mar 7, 2015

FWIW, religion and spirituality are not requirements for living, walking, or raising children in love. Although many Christians believe that Jesus is the embodiment of spiritual love, that does not imply that the only way that humans know or practice love is by accepting Jesus as the Christ. It would be narrow minded to suggest that only Christians can practice love, can raise children with a healthy concept of love, or can speak to what love means in the modern world, IMHO.

GrumpyRN, NP · Mar 7, 2015

stevosmusic said:
Because for me science still can't explain everything. And it can't teach me how to love and teach me certain moral values.

What kind of a person requires threats of everlasting punishment, torture and fire to understand what is right and wrong? Do your morals not come from doing the right thing regardless of punishment/threats? By morals do you actually mean societal pressure?

I can do no more than quote Dara O'Briain (Irish comedian) who stated, "Of course science doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop."

stevosmusic said:
I'm sure they weren't reassured either but we just did it as a nice gesture not to make anyone feel bad. The fact that they were lesbian made no difference if it was a straight couple or just one dude sitting there we still would have bought it.

Why? Did they look as if they required you to pay for their meal? In fact they even asked to get away from you.

stevosmusic said:
You are trying to say we where sitting there acting like we are "superior" but we bought a meal because we believe in putting other people first. We saw we may have offended them by our conversation top so we wanted to bless them for making them feel bad.

So why did you not stop your conversation or change the subject? You stated, "We saw we may have offended them".

Would you have continued your conversation if they had been a gay male couple who were both 6 feet + tall?

stevosmusic said:
You know because that's the whole point of christianty is to love people!

Really? Not from my reading of your story.

Reading this story makes me feel that you and your friend were being "superior" and condemning in your conversation. You then tried to make amends to YOUR consciences by paying for a meal for people you have offended.

cayenne06, MSN, CNM · Mar 8, 2015

Goat_Boy said:
Science can't prove if God exists but it also can't prove if god doesn't. Therefore everyone should be agnostic. And religion is just terrible.
HERE COMES THE SWARM OF RELIGIOUS FOLK

The reason I am an atheist is because if God (in the Biblical, bearded guy in the sky sense) did exist, I honestly kind of think he's a jerk. I find the idea of an omnipotent creator to be troubling.

Not that I have any problem with other people believing whatever they want, as long as that belief is not used as an excuse for bigotry or discrimination. And as long as other people's beliefs do not get between me and my patient, or between me and MY provider.

Gooselady said:
I only hear that bit about comparing a scientist's evidence with a religious faith or belief. Scientists don't BELIEVE in their research and theories in the same way a religious person BELIEVES in a supernatural being. It's not the same thing at all.
So likening a scientist's insistence on something being true to religious faith is ridiculous. You'd have to be a potato head to be unaware that scientists get squirrely and fake data and lie and cheat and steal. Because some scientists are as big a liar as Ted Haggart doesn't mean they ALL are. If even most scientists were producing fake facts, the technology we rely upon in all levels of life wouldn't exist, and that goes for traditional science to medicine, nursing intervention, and so on. Primarily the scientific community are just regular people with reasonable honesty and integrity. If they weren't, we wouldn't recognize that world.
People who don't believe in a supernatural being or religion do not look to Genesis for how the universe came to be. They don't even ignore Genesis. It doesn't occur to them to get their facts from ancient literature, it never crosses their minds. So 'using' what the Bible says as proof that's what the Bible says is . . . you get my drift. Or that a supernatural being exists because an ancient collection of writings says so. It is not even in consideration anywhere. It's not personal or a rebellion. It's not an affront to religion or the religious.
When 'faith' is the basis upon which a person makes choices and behaves, rather than evidence and experience, it can and does make for serious problems. Perhaps not so much in nursing, but it would if doctors relied on ancient texts to diagnose or prescribe. If the rest of us have to literally FIGHT to keep Creationism out of public school SCIENCE classes (not to mention that there is a 'controversy' around evolution, which there is not), that's when 'faith' needs to be seriously examined.
The real problem is that people get 'faith' and 'knowledge' confused, and think everything is just a matter of 'belief'. The truth is, there are tons and tons of evidence at everyone's fingertips, you don't have to BELIEVE anything. What is REALLY happening in this universe? It doesn't matter what you believe. It's happening in spite of it ?

Great post!!!

As far as the scientific theory evolution. Obviously we don't yet have a full understanding of evolution, the origins of life and the universe, or even of what it MEANS to be "alive." Of course science doesn't have all the answers- like others have said, if science had figured it all out, it would stop!!! Evolution is well described, well documented, and well understood. It is not a theory in the layperson sense, nor is it a belief system.

stevosmusic · Mar 8, 2015

GrumpyRN said:
What kind of a person requires threats of everlasting punishment, torture and fire to understand what is right and wrong? Do your morals not come from doing the right thing regardless of punishment/threats? By morals do you actually mean societal pressure?
I can do no more than quote Dara O'Briain (Irish comedian) who stated, "Of course science doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop."
I believe everyone has a sense of right and wrong. The majority of people regardless of their beliefs have morals. For instance Its easy to think killing is wrong, almost everyone does. Most people understand that hating is a bad thing. I loved before I was a christian. However being, a Christian has helped me take my morals to another level. Its taught me how to love people who hate me. How to forgive people who have wronged me. How to "turn the other cheek." No you don't need to be religious to have morals but I believe Christianity can strengthen them. Not just Christianity. I do believe in God but I believe even buddihsm and other religions can help someone become a better person. Besides thats kind of the difference between science and religion, one deals with more moral aspects of life and one deals with the theoretical side. It has nothing to do with fear of punishment. As the bible says perfect love has no fear. ?

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 9, 2015

stevosmusic said:
I believe everyone has a sense of right and wrong. The majority of people regardless of their beliefs have morals. For instance Its easy to think killing is wrong, almost everyone does. Most people understand that hating is a bad thing. I loved before I was a christian. However being, a Christian has helped me take my morals to another level. Its taught me how to love people who hate me. How to forgive people who have wronged me. How to "turn the other cheek." No you don't need to be religious to have morals but I believe Christianity can strengthen them. Not just Christianity. I do believe in God but I believe even buddihsm and other religions can help someone become a better person. Besides thats kind of the difference between science and religion, one deals with more moral aspects of life and one deals with the theoretical side. It has nothing to do with fear of punishment. As the bible says perfect love has no fear. ?

I've met a few individuals who don't appear to have that internal moral compass . . . but I agree with you in general, that morals sort of naturally occur and come from 'within' as a person is parented with their parent's morals and then encounter the morals of the society they live in.

Morals don't seem to come ONLY from a religious tradition. I see our morals as developing as we humans develop over time, it is a progressive development that is impacted by our growing knowledge base, our technology, how tightly we're crammed in together sharing limited resources, and so forth. If only Biblical morals were considered 'real' or 'true' morals, we'd still be stoning adulterers. Now we just idolize them in movies and books :cool: .

This whole thread is interesting, it's like 'evolution' is this . . . thing, like an opponent's belief system. All evolution is is a theory about how life forms develop and are shaped by natural selection. I don't get why 'evolution' is considered even something to get into debates about. This thread could have been called "Nursing and Quantum Mechanics" and made as much sense -- except who doesn't know 'evolution' has been taken as a threat to religious doctrine.