Evolution and Nursing

macawake, MSN · Mar 3, 2015

Elle23 said:
And my point was that just because I believe that an unfounded scientific theory has been used by Satan to dupe millions of people does not mean I believe all science is evil. Much good comes from science, obviously.

Thank you Elle, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.

If I understand you correctly you don't think that science or scientists are evil but that they are being used/duped by Satan to further his agenda?

I'm not sure why you call the Theory of Evolution unfounded though. As far as scientific theories go, that one's pretty solid.

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A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.As with most (if not all) forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive power and explanatory force.

(I took the liberty to borrow the above definition from wikipedia).

The Theory of Evolution is supported by so many confirming experiments and observations that scientists are confident that the basic premise of the theory won't be overturned by new evidence. That's not to say that the theory isn't continuously subjected to refinement as new technologies enable observations and experiments that were not previously possible and new areas of science emerge.

However no matter how much corroborating data is found, the theory will still be called a theory. That's because the scientific meaning of the word is different than its' everyday usage. The scientific use of the word theory does not imply uncertainty och guesswork.

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Of course there is no controversy. The fervor and evangelical zeal with which scientists promote their agenda rivals that of the most ardent religionist.
Scientists must toe the evolutionary line or they are shunned, silenced, and shut out from the scientific Community.

I don't agree with this. I think that scientists in general strive to uncover the truth, to discover how things really work. I think that science is an endeavour to accurately describe reality. When reality can be accurately descibed, one can accurately make predictions.

Science is subjected to peer-review and is constantly tested by new observations and experiments.

I think that a scientist might get shunned by the scientific community if they're caught tampering with data or argue against/refuse to accept research without a scientic/factual basis to do so, but not for coming up with new evidence that contradicts existing evidence. That is after all an accepted and expected part of the scientific process. Science questions and tests itself.

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No. Why would I? First of all, I believe gravity exists. Second, what does humanity have to lose by believing gravity exists?

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Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is the foundational truth of the Bible upon which every other truth rests.
Take this away and the whole house of cards collapses.
Satan is not stupid.

Is your primary motivation for disbelieving the Theory of Evolution that the scientific observations it's based on is in your opinion weak, or that it's contradicts Genesis?

The reason I wonder this is because when I look at the vast amount of supporting evidence from many different fields of science, I don't understand how there can be any doubt as to the Theory of Evolution.

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Then some guy walks through the door and passes our table on the way into the bathroom my friend stopped him and said "you are studying to become a vet right?" And the kid gets this crazy weird look on his face and said "yes how the hell did you know that" and he proceeded to tell him what school he went to and told hi! That God just wanted to encourage him to keep trying.

Stevosmusic, sometimes the simple explanation is the correct one. I wonder if the two of them hadn't previously dined at the pancake restaurant and your friend had perhaps overheard a conversation the future vet had. Or perhaps the student had on a previous occasion had a clothing item or bag or whatever with the name of his school on.

And why were the two women sitting next to you giving you "dirty" looks? Had something been said or happened that resulted in this exchange of looks between strangers? I'm not sure that I regard the act of paying for someone's meal an act of kindness when for some reason there seemed to be an atmosphere of animosity surrounding the encounter. It might even be viewed as condescending depending on the circumstances.

BrandonLPN, LPN · Mar 3, 2015

Argh, a CNA at work last night pulled out that old gem, "....then why are there still monkeys?" during a friendly evolution v. creationism debate.

I'm no scientist, but anyone with high school level biology should realize how dumb that argument is.

We know random genetic mutations occur when life reproduces. We know some of these mutations, as conditions and environments change, prove to be beneficial to survival. And thus those with this mutation are the ones that survive in greater and greater numbers over time. And we know over even more time more mutations and adaptations will lead to new species branching off from older ones.

For Pete's sake, it's observed and recorded on a regular basis. Why do you think new strains of lice keep popping up that are resistant to delousing shampoo? The genetic resistance to the shampoo already existed in some segments of the lice population before the shampoo was even invented. Once humans began using the shampoo many of the non-resistant mites died early, sudsy deaths. So, of course, the ones who happened to posses this resistance were the ones who lived to pass on their genes. But it is not as though all the other lice suddenly disappeared once the new strain appeared. Anyone can see how absurd thinking that would be. Clearly, we see the new species along side the old. They share common ancestors. One does not necessarily "replace" the other.

So, anyone with a shred of common sense ought realize asking "If evolution is real, why are there still monkeys?" is a nonsense-question. Please, people, stop trotting this ignorant question out during every debate.

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 3, 2015

I only hear that bit about comparing a scientist's evidence with a religious faith or belief. Scientists don't BELIEVE in their research and theories in the same way a religious person BELIEVES in a supernatural being. It's not the same thing at all. Scientists (which include nurses and their evidence-based interventions) reach conclusions via evidence and testing. Every discovery made by a scientist has several others working as hard as they can to DISPROVE the first scientist's hypothesis. Humanity has discovered at least as much, if not more, by scientists trying to prove other scientists wrong.

Faith and 'belief' are a cognitive choice, and the importance of making this choice in the absence of evidence or testing is encouraged, celebrated and rewarded. Faith is not tested, in fact, testing faith is discouraged and punished.

So likening a scientist's insistence on something being true to religious faith is ridiculous. You'd have to be a potato head to be unaware that scientists get squirrely and fake data and lie and cheat and steal. Because some scientists are as big a liar as Ted Haggart doesn't mean they ALL are. If even most scientists were producing fake facts, the technology we rely upon in all levels of life wouldn't exist, and that goes for traditional science to medicine, nursing intervention, and so on. Primarily the scientific community are just regular people with reasonable honesty and integrity. If they weren't, we wouldn't recognize that world.

People who don't believe in a supernatural being or religion do not look to Genesis for how the universe came to be. They don't even ignore Genesis. It doesn't occur to them to get their facts from ancient literature, it never crosses their minds. So 'using' what the Bible says as proof that's what the Bible says is . . . you get my drift. Or that a supernatural being exists because an ancient collection of writings says so. It is not even in consideration anywhere. It's not personal or a rebellion. It's not an affront to religion or the religious.

When 'faith' is the basis upon which a person makes choices and behaves, rather than evidence and experience, it can and does make for serious problems. Perhaps not so much in nursing, but it would if doctors relied on ancient texts to diagnose or prescribe. If the rest of us have to literally FIGHT to keep Creationism out of public school SCIENCE classes (not to mention that there is a 'controversy' around evolution, which there is not), that's when 'faith' needs to be seriously examined.

The real problem is that people get 'faith' and 'knowledge' confused, and think everything is just a matter of 'belief'. The truth is, there are tons and tons of evidence at everyone's fingertips, you don't have to BELIEVE anything. What is REALLY happening in this universe? It doesn't matter what you believe. It's happening in spite of it :)

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Mar 3, 2015

stevosmusic said:
I was never huge on my faith until I started hanging out with some dude from a ministry on our college. I had always believed in God but I guess I always just blew it off to live life. One day I went to Ihop with the these dudes and they were sitting there talking about God. Then some guy walks through the door and passes our table on the way into the bathroom my friend stopped him and said "you are studying to become a vet right?" And the kid gets this crazy weird look on his face and said "yes how the hell did you know that" and he proceeded to tell him what school he went to and told hi! That God just wanted to encourage him to keep trying. Also a lesbian couple sitting next to us kept giving us dirty looks so we paid for their whole 40$ meal. I never believed in prophecy but to see this guy tell a random stranger he has never met was crazy. And to buy random peoples dinners because they dont like you is radical. I've had several other experiences like this and frankly science has no explanation/

Actually, science isn't required to explain anything here, and there is no reason to look to the heavens either. MANY things pop into my head as to how "this dude" knew what the student had going on. I'm not sure how you knew the two women sitting near you were lesbians unless they were pawing at each other; why would they be giving you and "the dude" dirty looks? Were you or your friend being rude to them? If not....I don't know where this part of the story comes in.

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Mar 3, 2015

macawake said:
....hadn't previously dined at the pancake restaurant and your friend had perhaps overheard a conversation the future vet had. Or perhaps the student had on a previous occasion had a clothing item or bag or whatever with the name of his school on.
And why were the two women sitting next to you giving you "dirty" looks? Had something been said or happened that resulted in this exchange of looks between strangers? I'm not sure that I regard the act of paying for someone's meal an act of kindness when for some reason there seemed to be an atmosphere of animosity surrounding the encounter. It might even be viewed as condescending depending on the circumstances.

LOL, I must have been psychically connected to you when I wrote my response!

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Mar 3, 2015

I seem to be something of an oddity, in that I accept religious teachings (although I question them A LOT!) and have no problem with following my faith. I can easily distinguish what is likely a metaphor, a parable, a story translated in the 'telephone game' style, from scientific fact.

I have no problem believing in Evolution, and understanding the progression of evolution as relates to our humanity and our earth. I also have no problem finding this consistent with my understanding of Torah.

Ok, so the world was created by G'd. Why is it so giant a stretch to some to believe He created what WOULD BECOME, over TIME, what we are today? If G'd is powerful enough to bring about the creation of all that we know as Life, why so hard to believe that Life was a process in and of itself?

Some people hang onto the words "created in His own image". Ok.....what makes you think G'd is a two-armed, two-legged male? Could G'd not be something far less tangible and far less obvious?

stevosmusic · Mar 3, 2015

Well the guy had no bag and he was completely freaked out by the whole thing. And if you choose to believe he somehow knew this guy before then that's fine but it definitely didn't seem that way? They kept looking at us and eventually asked the waiter to be moved away from us. Now I don't blame them as Christians don't exactly have the best record with the gay community. And besides we didn't tell them we paid for it we simply added it to our bill and left. It has nothing to do with trying to shame them or to try and make us feel better.

elkpark · Mar 3, 2015

Elle23 said:
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is the foundational truth of the Bible upon which every other truth rests.
Take this away and the whole house of cards collapses.
Satan is not stupid.

Who's talking about taking away any "foundational truth(s)"? Many, many believing, committed Christians believe that God created the earth and all the creatures on it, including humans, by setting evolution in motion and letting that process unfold naturally, and there is no conflict between Christian faith and the theory of evolution (or any other science). There are many possible, valid interpretations of Scripture. Are you suggesting that you get to decide which beliefs and interpretations are valid and legitimate and which aren't? Evolution is "satanic"? Boy, this discussion is really taking me back. I grew up around fundamentalists who considered the "6 24-hr days" theory of Creation an article of faith and who used to claim that the devil put all those dinosaur bones in the ground to trip up people who weren't strong in their faith. I haven't heard that one in a looongg time ...

Christy1019, ASN, RN · Mar 3, 2015

elkpark said:
Who's talking about taking away any "foundational truth(s)"? Many, many believing, committed Christians believe that God created the earth and all the creatures on it, including humans, by setting evolution in motion and letting that process unfold naturally, and there is no conflict between Christian faith and the theory of evolution (or any other science). There are many possible, valid interpretations of Scripture. Are you suggesting that you get to decide which beliefs and interpretations are valid and legitimate and which aren't? Evolution is "satanic"? Boy, this discussion is really taking me back. I grew up around fundamentalists who considered the "6 24-hr days" theory of Creation an article of faith and who used to claim that the devil put all those dinosaur bones in the ground to trip up people who weren't strong in their faith. I haven't heard that one in a looongg time ...

I did always wonder about those dinosaur bones...

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Mar 3, 2015

Christy1019 said:
I did always wonder about those dinosaur bones...

I've got one for ya: had a discussion some years back in which a "Bible-believing Christian" (her phrasing, not mine) insisted the Earth could be no more than 6,000 years old because some theologian did the math. Ummmm....ok, how to explain all the carbon dating evidencing much older materials on Earth? "They're wrong, it's only a maximum of 6,000 years old". What about fossils, primitive animals that no longer exist? "They're wrong. They are also less than 6,000 years old".

But here's the best: when asked how he explained dinosaurs being on the Earth (and extinct) prior to human habitation.....wait for it.....Scientists got it wrong, those dinosaurs were ON THE ARK with all the other animals, so that's how we have found their bones, in a time period AFTER "the Great Flood". Seriously? You picture TWO T-Rexes, TWO bronchisaurus, two....you get the idea.

Yessiree Bob, two of every dinosaur must have been on Noah's Ark. One HELLUVA big boat. And there I was with the image of Noah's wife with a leash on a T-Rex.

I was done right then and there.

pro-student · Mar 3, 2015

I always sigh in regret for how poorly people understand science when issues like this come up. Let me just say if you're a nurse you believe in evolution! Ever heard of antibiotic-resistant microbes? Ever wonder how there's a diversity of inherited physical characteristics (skin/hair/eye color) if "god only created 2 people"? Even leading creationist debaters with give evolutionary explanations for these and many others.

The unfortunate problem is people don't understand their terms. Evolution is scientific fact and provable. The only question and real debate is how far evolution extends. Does it include speciation or major phylogenetic changes or is it limited to in-species adaptations. Everyone who has even a modicum of education/understanding would know evolution is true. That doesn't necessary exclude gods of any flavor or mean everything came into existence ex ni hilo. It just means one understand the constantly evolving nature of biological systems.

Red Kryptonite · Mar 3, 2015

RNsRWe said:
I seem to be something of an oddity, in that I accept religious teachings (although I question them A LOT!) and have no problem with following my faith. I can easily distinguish what is likely a metaphor, a parable, a story translated in the 'telephone game' style, from scientific fact.
I have no problem believing in Evolution, and understanding the progression of evolution as relates to our humanity and our earth. I also have no problem finding this consistent with my understanding of Torah.
Ok, so the world was created by G'd. Why is it so giant a stretch to some to believe He created what WOULD BECOME, over TIME, what we are today? If G'd is powerful enough to bring about the creation of all that we know as Life, why so hard to believe that Life was a process in and of itself?
Some people hang onto the words "created in His own image". Ok.....what makes you think G'd is a two-armed, two-legged male? Could G'd not be something far less tangible and far less obvious?

I love this post. This is me, except I'm Catholic. Someone mentioned Einstein earlier. He may not have been religious himself, but he certainly had no problem being friends with and respecting the scientific acumen of Fr. Georges Lemaitre, who is the father of the Big Bang Theory.