Evolution and Nursing

macawake, MSN · Mar 11, 2015

GrumpyRN said:
We can go around and around this forever and we wont convince each other of our version of the 'truth' and I don't want to - one of us will get really, really upset and it will degenerate into a slanging match. Or more likely the thread will get closed down.

I agree. This is why I very rarely get into discussions with a religious person about the reasons why I'm an atheist. I can't seem to be able to explain why without hurting someone's feelings or seem condescending. It's not something I wish to do so I just generally avoid it.

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People of faith can never adequately explain this to people who refuse faith. It's a just a divide we can't bridge.

RedKryptonite, it's not a question of refusing. I'm simply not capable (or willing) of accepting something that doesn't make sense to me or seem logical to me, something that can't be seen, measured or tested. I could write several pages with reasons why I don't believe but nothing good will come of it, so I won't.

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As long as we stay respectful of each other, it will work out.

I agree ?

MidLifeRN2012 · Mar 12, 2015

Sigh .... Hell is going to be full.

So many atheists.

macawake, MSN · Mar 12, 2015

MidLifeRN2012 said:
Sigh .... Hell is going to be full.
So many atheists.

I have to wonder why you found it necessary to make this post? Do you understand exactly how empty that threat is to me? Surely you must see that it's only meaningful to someone who believes in the concept of hell.

As I said earlier, I won't go into detail to explain my position. I think that you could probably benefit from me speaking clearly, no holds barred, but I can't figure out a way of making an argument against hell without offending many of the posters here on AN that I do respect and who in turn show respect to those of different beliefs.

Back to the topic of evolution. You posted earlier that in your opinon it's obvious that the Big Bang needed a "Big Banger". My response to you is that I find your viewpoint less than logical. I assume that you think that the world is so complex that it needed a creator? Have I understood your stance on this correctly? If so, my logical follow-up question to this is, who/what then created the complex entity that has the impressive ability to create a complex world? Or did that entity perhaps evolve? How?

I am actually curious about your thought process on this, so feel free to explain.

ixchel · Mar 12, 2015

MidLifeRN2012 said:
Sigh .... Hell is going to be full.
So many atheists.

It makes it easier to not worry about this when an atheist doesn't believe in Hell.

But knowing YOU believe in Hell, this feels like something that I should be offended by????

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 12, 2015

Red Kryptonite said:
That poster assumes we can fit God into our own level of moral construct and understanding. His ways are not our ways, as the Bible clearly says. I don't presume to think I can understand everything, and that if I can't, that that somehow invalidates God. God invalid based on my small ability to understand? That's the ultimate hubris.
People of faith can never adequately explain this to people who refuse faith. It's a just a divide we can't bridge. As long as we stay respectful of each other, it will work out.

This brings up why it is difficult for believers and nonbelievers to have respectful discussions (such as we are having now ? ) -- and we really, really need to discuss!

I haven't refused faith, either. More like 'faith refused me'. This may be baffling or sound like a cop out to a believer, but I swear to you, no matter how hard I tried, and fairly recently I might add, during what I hope was the worst part of my life, I begged for faith and belief. And just like every other time I did, that special 'something' didn't happen. This last time I got objective confirmation, from the person trying their darndest to convert me (with my full participation and permission). She pulled out everything, I think. And then one day she didn't call, and the next. I got a check for $200 in the mail (?????) from her and never heard from her again. I wasn't working yet (horrid divorce, loss of my farm, long story) so I put cheap retread tires on my SUV with that money and am grateful more for the time she invested on me than the cash

It was my wake up call, that I am what I am, and that is not a believer. If I'm honest I don't believe much of anything with great confidence.

I thought I was weird or unique, but I'm not. Since then I've met or talked to many atheists or agnostics or whatever you want to call them who had the exact same experience I did. Yes, we tried hard enough. Yes we were 'willing enough'.

Most atheists don't refuse faith so they can have free license to go out and fornicate or whatever sinful thing they want to do. A lot of us simply got spat back out, simple as that.

So, once I faced reality, I began to explore my new 'tribe', a bit unwillingly but again, because I want to be honest, too. Maybe we were born missing a cluster of neurons? According to a claim of neuroscience, about 20% of humans lack 'activity' in a certain area associated with mystical or spiritual experiences. This would make a lot of sense why about 80% of Americans claim to believe in God.

I'm over it and fine without belief, better than fine in fact. But I wasn't. And I think it's important for believers to know this, because Christians are obligated to witness to nonbelievers. You should know this and understand it, for yourself. We don't need any help and we were born fine the first time and all that . It smarts and I feel vaguely 'insulted' (though I know no insult is meant) when I'm TOLD that I refused faith. I most certainly did not. It refused me. And there are lots of us ?

macawake, MSN · Mar 12, 2015

Gooselady said:
This brings up why it is difficult for believers and nonbelievers to have respectful discussions (such as we are having now ? ) -- and we really, really need to discuss!

I agree with you. I think that the world would be a better place if we could all be respectful of each other. I don't always have respect for the opinion itself, in the sense that I embrace or understand it, but I always try to be respectful of the human being expressing the opinion.

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I thought I was weird or unique, but I'm not. Since then I've met or talked to many atheists or agnostics or whatever you want to call them who had the exact same experience I did. Yes, we tried hard enough. Yes we were 'willing enough'.

I actually think that you and everyone else is in fact unique ? We are valuble to the people close to us and it's in our power to do good things for others.

Personally, not being a "believer" has never caused me any anguish. I've simply never seen any compelling reason to believe, so I don't. I actually think that believing in a God would cause me much more emotional turmoil. I'd have a very hard time reconciling the state of the world with the existence of a benevolent creator. (Yes, I know I said I would get into any details, yet here I am.. blah, blah.. ).

The "free will" argument to me, holds no water. The only one who genuinely has free will is the physically stronger person, the better armed person, the person whose conscience places no restrictions on their actions or the member of the larger group that outnumbers/dominates the smaller group etc. The person who gets beaten into a pulp, the child who gets raped or the frail elderly person who's neglected/abused didn't choose this. They weren't afforded the luxury of free will in these situations. So obviously free will isn't universal.

I find it easier to accept that this is simply the way human nature is. We're capable of both great kindness, selflessness and compassion as well as unfathomable cruelty and every nuance in between.

Anyway, this thread is about evolution. With the massive amount of supporting evidence from many different fields, to me accepting this scientific theory makes perfect sense. I can understand if a religious person incorporates evolution into their faith. What I can't understand is the outright rejection of evolution. Such a stance in my opinion, flies in the face of science.

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 12, 2015

Macawake said:

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The "free will" argument to me, holds no water. The only one who genuinely has free will is the physically stronger person, the better armed person, the person whose conscience places no restrictions on their actions or the member of the larger group that outnumbers/dominates the smaller group etc. The person who gets beaten into a pulp, the child who gets raped or the frail elderly person who's neglected/abused didn't choose this. They weren't afforded the luxury of free will in these situations. So obviously free will isn't universal.

That is a really good point. I've not thought of 'free will' in that context before. Sam Harris wrote a book about our lack of free will, which mostly went over my head, but what you wrote above is a perfect example of what it takes to actually have free will. You'd have to be sociopathic to have 'free will' . . . most of the rest of the time, we respond in fairly conscripted ways, thanks to being civilized, having empathy, 'doing the right thing', obeying the law, saying the 'right thing', keeping you lip zipped, and so on.

Your comments on my post were very thoughtful and kind, I appreciate them ? I couldn't agree more that having no "God" out there listening in and measuring my words and deeds against a rather draconian (read: impossible and unfair) list is indeed a relief. The thing is, I could never get onboard BELIEVING I was being monitored and judged to begin with It just could not compute. To be even more honest, although I did yearn and even beg during those terrible weeks after I lost my beautiful farm and useless husband, it was a relief to just ACCEPT that it wasn't going to happen and even better, it didn't need to. It never needed to.

A nurse's belief system directly impacts his/her behavior, and possibly his/her patient care and relationships. IMO those who see 'evolution' as a direct threat to their faith are more likely to give themselves permission to behave in unhelpful or unkind ways with certain 'sinful' populations. It is an expression of 'us versus them' in a way that will affect a nurse's therapeutic use of self, if carried too far. The worst I've seen is the ugly faces a coworker made when she was assigned to a male patient who's elderly male partner was staying in the room with him. Oh, and her relief when she was UNassigned from him, as if being anywhere near him made her sick. Can you imagine a person being able to completely hide that kind of disgust and contempt when they are taking care of you? People aren't that dense, and that kind of stuff hurts.

Gooselady, BSN, RN · Mar 12, 2015

MidLifeRN2012 said:
Sigh .... Hell is going to be full.
So many atheists.

Even if there is a God that would send people to Hell simply for not 'believing in him' I would refuse to believe in him on principle. I spend as little time as possible feeding into people's narcissistic delusions, and a God like this is no exception.

macawake, MSN · Mar 12, 2015

Gooselady said:
Even if there is a God that would send people to Hell simply for not 'believing in him' I would refuse to believe in him on principle. I spend as little time as possible feeding into people's narcissistic delusions, and a God like this is no exception.

I agree. I don't find the "believe in me, or else.." -sentiment overly appealing either. Fear would in my opinion be a very unfortunate reason for belief.

And why would the being that created me, punish me for being created with a defective understanding of things? My inability to "see" seems to imply a construction mishap not of my own doing.

I'm glad that you're doing better after the rough times you've been through.

Take care! ?

ixchel · Mar 12, 2015

Gooselady, you and I were separated at birth.

Quite honestly, I'm just a fickle person. I don't have favorites because context changes everything. When I am presented with anything, I question it. I don't believe in God because I just don't. We all walk different paths, and this is mine. I find believers with faith beautiful. I find science beautiful. Whatever you believe in, question it. If you still believe, your convictions will be stronger. I don't think any of us is capable of being wrong because to me, proof either way doesn't exist. I'm a good person who believes in love, compassion and honesty. I'm totally a hippie. â˜ºï¸

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Mar 12, 2015

MidLifeRN2012 said:
Sigh .... Hell is going to be full.
So many atheists.

Well......I am not an athiest, but I don't believe in Hell. I have no belief in a fire-and-brimstone existence, or in any version of The Devil that is so everpresent in Christianity's teachings.

I wonder what you'd make of me? ?

Red Kryptonite · Mar 12, 2015

MidLifeRN2012 said:
Sigh .... Hell is going to be full.
So many atheists.

I'm as religious as they come, and I find this offensive. It violates the biblical command not to judge, first of all. That verse gets so misused by people who just don't want their behavior called out that we've lost the meaning of it. It's about judging souls as God does, declaring whether they're going to Heaven or Hell. A Christian who says this violates the command of his own savior. But secondly, there is hope for every soul. People can repent or be converted at any moment, and God will know that while you won't. Thirdly, invincible ignorance does exist, and there are avenues by which our human brothers and sisters who don't know Christ can join those in Heaven. To say there aren't is to limit the mercy and love of God, and who are we to do that?! Just because we may not understand doesn't mean it can't or won't happen.

To the atheists and nonChristians reading, please don't debate this post. I'm talking as one Christian to another and trying to fraternally correct error.